itzjere

That's pretty cool, didn't know about the bB's putting out that much whp. Custom would definitely be the way to go. I can see tuning being a huge issue with the motor since it's not a commonly tuned motor. emanage ultimate is the best option right now for the 1nz motor's. Good luck with all that work!

SpeciaL1_575

how can you compare the tc to the new si. the new si, even if it goes for 19 i doubt you will find ANY dealership willing to sell it for that price. is still 3 grand more than a tc. Scion also supports "what you see is what you pay" err thats what all the dealers i went to IL and CA. with that 3000ish dollars you can get a turbo and still smoke it. but w/e i wouldnt exactly call switching from a tc to a si an upgrade. your still stuck witha slow FWD car. slow in comparison to a s2k, evo, etc. if i was going to upgrade i would save up and buy a evo.

itzjere

Yes, you are completely right about the price diffference and I've heard from different forums that asking from for the new Si goes anywhere from 22k to 26k.

Why would you not consider going from a tC to Si an upgrade? Yes, your still in a FWD sport compact car, but I think it depends on what point of view you look at "upgrade" from. Judging by you mentioning turbo and mentioning the S2K and Evo, I assume your point of view for upgrade is performance wise, than I think the Si is an upgrade from a performance point of view because you are moving from a 2zz motor which does not have anywhere near the research and development time as the K-series motor in terms of aftermarket parts and tuning. That and the K-series motor mod for mod, is much more accepting of mods.

Oh yah, and the S2k, which I very much respect and would like to have eventually as my next suitable car, in stock form, is not much faster than a RSX Type-S which carries the same motor as the new Si (K20Z3). The S2K is much more of a balanced car and with an F20 motor, mid-engine design and RWD, the car has much potential.

Evo's are nice cars, and definitely a bullet-proof motor with a lot of torque as well, but has a bad record of having lots of problems down the road (3 years) and requires a lot of maintenance unfortunately.

hotbox05

evo's motors are nowhere near bullet proof. i've heard of sooo many blowing within the first year. both online and from two friends. one of which is all stock and driven by a pregnant woman..... evo's r crap.... just wait till the expensive motor blows.

Skunk

Short of factory lemons, or cars that just aren't broken in properly, 4G63 motors are pretty much the definition of the term "bullet-proof". There aren't many engines out there that run 20psi of boost in stock form and can handle a lot more. Those are 2.0l four-bangers pumping out over 140hp per liter! Most of the Evo problems I've heard of are exploding clutches and stripped transmissions (from "spirited" driving I'm sure). I'm not a big Evo fan or anything, but I recognize a strong engine when I see it.

The 4G63 is one of the strongest (if not the strongest) 2.0l 4cyl engines ever built, bottom-line.

killerxromances

Say you do have three grand difference, for one its not a practical way to compare two cars. Well, if i do this to my car to make up the difference in price its a fair comparison. No its not. You are comparing a boosted 2az vs. a stock k20. Think about it. Also, if you know how to neg. with dealership employees, you could probably talk them down slightly from $19,990 next year. I say next year because usually dealerships won't budge from their base price when they just release a new car or redesign, not for the first few months at any rate.

Back to my point, your logic comparing the tC and Si with price make up isn't a fair way of doing so. Plus, where are you going to find a turbo kit for $3,000 with everything you need to run correctly? The ZPI stage 0 is exactly $3,000, plus tax and shipping, install and tuning you are way past your $3,000 mark. Yet still, not the right way to compare two cars.

Cya

DelayedTurbo

Just got the SI in at our dealer, even at employee cost, thats if they give us MSRP its still over 20,450, sorry children...this is a 20,000+ vehicle...the one we had was 23,450 that for normal folk that aren't special, without titles taxes, etc..., that was without anything added to it as well...so your beat if you think your getting it less...and talkin to some of the Honda salesmen, most likely your looking at closer to 25,000 out the door.

After looking at them though damn nice cars...I'd take one...hehe

killerxromances

Actually, theres a % mark up on them currently, $8,000 mark up in Cali. This will go down back to original pricing of $19,990 because you are not going to sale any Civic for that price. I hate to tell you that, actually i don't because its fact. The Si is undoubtly a nice car, but its main compition is with the Rsx-s, to price it about the rsx-s is a stupid decision and it will be dropped. In other news, the dealership here finally put prices on them and one has nothing done to it at all and its $20,100. Why would they not do the $25,000? Because it won't sell and everybody knows it.

Cya

DelayedTurbo

I'm not in Cali, plus I'm sorry your wrong, its not gonna sell under 20k...hell, we're not even allowed to test drive em without filling out a form, cuz its not like the old ____ty civics, its something good for once...without all the extra bull____, transportation fees, etc...its still 20,450...and again, most people won't get that, cuz dealerships get final say, so it will go up, and that thes lowest possible price, its ranges all the way back up to 25k

MonkeySan

I am one of those people who was sure the Si would retail for over 20K (mainly because the EX is very close in price, and that makes me wonder what they took out of the Si to get the cost down) and I admit I was wrong (sort of, since the delivery/dealer fees put it over 20K).

Still, I must say I am not that impressed with the Si as I thought I would be. Everyone is going on about how heavy the tC is, and it is only 28 pounds heavier than the Si. Track times are not impressive. It's still a sheep in wolf's clothing. Any soccer mom in an Accord V-6 or a codger in an old Trans Am can beat it at the stoplight.

killerxromances

Spare me the dealership speach. Yeah, its redesigned and yes i agree, they look great in person. Better than the previous model anyway. But to say its not like the other civics is just an excuse to jack up your prices. Its a K20, very good motor and finally the civic sees that with a six speed. However, the K20 isn't some glorious motor thats totally brand new and theres nothing like it. The RSX-S has the K series as well, you price your Civic above the RSX good luck trying to sell it. And yes, the $19,990 is supposed to be the pricing of the new Si regardless of what you claim. I used Cali as an example, theres a % mark up on all civics currently. Your way of thinking does not sell you cars, it makes you a jerk thinking you can take advantage of something thats there. Which, usually thats the way you have to do to make business happen but when it comes to something like a Civic, its the wrong way to think. The new Si is not worth $25,000 base, $19,990 is a great price tag and it could go up to $20,500 and still be worth it, but beyond that your entering a new class of cars.

Cya

Skunk

Yeah, i saw this one coming. Especially with the performance and hype the Si has been generating. A pretty solid markup is to be expected, especially for the first 6 months to a year. I may be slightly biased, being a WRX owner. but I have to say if the Civic Si is selling any higher than $22K, the WRX is a *much* better deal in that price range. Superior options (except for navi), AWD, more performance, better seating/storage and probably better insurance as well.

killerxromances

tC - 2,905lbs
Si - 2,877lbs

Now, say you have a 170lbs driver, lets add this in there, total:
tC- 3,075lbs
Si - 3,027lbs

Now for power to weight using whp:
tC- 21.9
Si- 17.8

That may not sound like a difference, but it is especially after you factor in gearing. Still, its not always about 1/4 times, infact it never is. Overall, the Si performs better. Period.

Cya

jbae1221

i think i said that honda has been in the sport compact market for a long time... maybe i read it wrong... or wrote it wrong..

killerxromances

I never said you didn't say that, but because they have been in the market for years its going to take longer than a year for the 2az to catch up.

Cya

hotbox05

4g63's are supposedly strong but yeah lots of blown motors awfully soon. whether or not it can take 20psi. u push it and i goes bam. or in my friends case let yer pregnant wife drive it for like 3 months and bam..... breaking it in wrong? um DOES ANYONE EVER break a car in CORRECTLY? no . cause it's damned near impossible to do in the real world.

killerxromances

The 4G63 isn't one of the strongest motors out there, though it is overall a well designed motor. There are some stories out though like hotbox mentioned, i personally don't know anyone with an Evo so i can't second hand judge personally.

However, the 2.5l boxer motor from Subaru is one of the strongest, well built and produced motors in my opinion. Can anyone say AVCS?

Anyway, back on topic: Si price will be coming down next year, otherwise Honda will be looking at very, very poor sales. The % mark up is going to haunt them.

Cya

Skunk

I still haven't heard of any cases of blown motors that didn't involve improper tuning/maintanence. Perhaps the pregnant wife filled 'er up with 87 octane?

And does anyone actually break in a car correctly? If they buy a high performance car like an Evo they should, unless they're retarded. If you don't break in a tC or Civic or something correctly, you probably won't have problems. You buy a high-strung engine car like an Evo, STi, S2000 or something and don't break it in right, then yeah, expect problems.

Skunk

Well, I did say 2.0l motors. And yes, the 4G is easily one of the strongest 4-cyls ever. The only engines I can think of that compare to it would be the S15 SR20DET, and the JDM STi EJ20. The EJ20 may be stronger, but I'd say it's real close. The SR is a ridiculously good engine, but I don't think it's as strong as the Evo VIII generation 4Gs.

And as a Scooby owner, I agree that the EJ25 is one of the best 4-cyls ever.

EDIT: I've also heard the new GM Ecotek engines have proved to be massively strong in drag applications, but I haven't heard good numbers on stock internals. Or from the 2l version for that matter.

killerxromances

The Ej25 is something i agree with you on, and as far as how its built i would say its a lot better than the 4G. Ecotek is trash, they have improved the GM massivly and yeah, it does perform and hold up a lot more so than ever, but the motor is still crap. Drag is boring so i don't really care if a motor can be built for it, i perfer looking at the motor and an entire car and seeing what it can offer as a package. Handling, accleration, dependable with X amount of mods, so on so forth.

For the cost of the K20, its a very dependable 2.0. With the release of the HKS turbo, it can put down 350whp and 289wtq with only minor upgrades for the block and tranny to hold. K series has always been a great motor to work with, especially when you add in its JDM cousins.

Cya