itzjere

Team Honda? Sure, we are arguing for a car made by Honda, but doesn't mean we still don't drive a Toyota and support it here on the forums.. anyways..

Yes, I keep refering to the F/I issue, but maybe cause you keep brining it up.. because I bring it up.. haha, it's a cycle.. Alrite, then for N/A vs N/A comparison, you still haven't answered my question! What does I/RH/E on a tC dyno at? I can tell you that the K20Z1/3 with the 6-speed trans will dyno at 170-175hp and have plenty of evidence to show you on ClubRSX forum which I'm sure you know, the 05/06 RSX share the same motor and transmission as the new Si. So lets try to compare somwhat apples to apples here.

Now that you've brought it up, I'm curious to what kinda background you have with cars. I'm guessing you don't work at the dealership as killer might have though. You said you've owned Hondas and done your share of mods. What have you done? Have you modded your tC? I'm a big fan of tC as I've seen many clean ones here in SacTown.

killerxromances

Dur, thats right. I always forget that we never get the real jdm deals. Rsx did have a different k series prior though, if i'm not mistaken. First two or so years it was introduced. I never looked too hard in the rsx-s.

R2D2: Well i was just waiting for the age thing to pop up, what took you so long? I've also built a honda and i also have plenty of experience working with them. Just because you are older doesn't mean you have more knowledge, and from how you are responding it doesn't appear you have too much experience.

As for "mommy and daddy", they have never paid for my car. I have paid my bills, all of them since i turned 17 thank you. When i had the gsr, i had local support with the build from local shops at the time as well as my own cash. With the box, i financed it myself (no co-sign) and i also have paid for every dime that has gone into it. I apologize for working my **** off and you pre-judging how i pay for things, if i even pay for them at all.

I dont hate the tC, i respect the tC. What i hate, is when tC owners think they have something better than what it is. Sure, the 2az has potential and by all means its a nice, well built car. But, its designed for economy and semi-comfort, not made for performance. But, any motor can be built to perform obviously.

And are you saying in terms of n/a the 2az and k20z is evenly matched? If so, your knowledge doesn't appear to go far at all. K20 has much more aftermarket ability to out run the 2az n/a. Especially with the japanesse market that the tC lacks.

killerxromances

No, i don't work at a dealership nor have i. I wouldn't mind it though. However, i do know one person that works for nissan, and another that works for Toyota/Scion. But that really doesn't matter too much since that has little to do with our conversation. Unless you are implying the friend of mine that bought the Si for under $20k. But that has no effect either..So i don't know what it would have to do with..lol

itzjere

Hahaha.. Killer, i forgot the t at the end of though, i meant THOUGHT. ahah. but yah, i wouldn't mind working at a dealership either. I know a few friends who do, and to have access to all that equipment afterhours is like a dream come true for people who work on their cars themselves.

Base RSX : K20A3
02-04 type-s : K20A2
05/06 type-s: K20Z1
Civic Si: K20Z3

I think the 06 RSX might be a Z3.. not too sure but first thought tells me it a Z1. there isn't a big difference between the two though.

If you ever decide to swap or get a k-series motor, and plan on modding it, try to plan out your mods before you buy the motor. the A2 is a great motor for F/I even with it's 11:1 compression. The z1/z3 motor is better for N/A. the z1/z3 motor has too much overlap with the JDM cams that boost falls after 7k rpm. just a through.. dunno why i'm telling you this either

killerxromances

K20a2..i was right, thats what i was thinking i just didn't add the 2 at the end. The jdm k20a though is a beast in itself. I really wish they would bring it over but they never will. K20a3 is okay as far as the motor goes, but if i personally wouldn't touch it as far as tuning goes.

killerxromances

By the way, you are correct. K20z3 is Si, k20z1 is rsx-s.

itzjere

Haha, no offence to RSX base owners or EP3 owners, but to me, the K20A3 is a complete joke. Mostly because it doesn't support true i-vtec. Well, it uses vtec theory, but not what people normally consider what vtec is where it crosses over to high speed cams after a certain rpm. it basically goes from 12-value to 16-value after 2200 rpm and at about 6000 rpm, it twin cycles the air so it comes in faster. that and its a single stage manifold where as the a2 is a dual stage.. honestly, the price difference between the base of the type-s (3K) is worth it. for the far more superior motor, brakes, and all the other little goodies like bose audio (overrated) and nicer wheels. oh yah, and better suspension. and who could forget 6-speed trans

itzjere

Ah, cool beans :thumbsup:

killerxromances

base rsx is a nice car if you don't plan to do any serious modifications. If you do, you'd swap in a heartbeat. Not too much aftermarket for the a3, well, compared to other K series. And then B16. JDM B16c is pretty freaking hot.

I'd love to see a stock Si and stock rsx-s run head to head with 1/4, autox and street environments. Seeing exactly how close they compare. They apparently did such testing as i've read on other forums, but i haven't seen evidence of it.

From my experience with both i'd say the Si feels like it pulls harder in 1st and 2nd vs. the rsx-s. But, unless you drive one right after the other its really hard to tell.

itzjere

Interesting that you'd say the Si pulls harder than the RSX. what year RSX were you driving? I can see the JDM FD in the Si and 05/06 RSX making it feel like you pull a lot harder though.

I agree, and I hope they compare the Si to the 06 type-s. would be a nice comparison to show how much weight affects 1/4 mile, and a good comparison of suspension setup.

Janizary

Heh, now that would be a great deal. Let's see: To get to no more than $19,999 after financing (again, using Vegas for sales tax purposes), with Zero (0) down, at 4.9% amortized on a monthly basis for 60 months, the total deal (all in including tax, dest, fees, etc.) could be no more than $17,777. This translates to $15,802 before tax (at 7.75% example=$1,225), $550 Desitination, and $200 for doc, fees, etc. (should anyone really care to know the financial calculations, I can post them, if needed)

The total sales price would, of course, could be higher with less financed, in order to achieve a fully-load, full depleted 60 month loan and still be able to achieve a "all in" number of under $20K.

I think we are getting a bit extreme now :D Even the tC is not going to be under $20K, full loaded and amortized under 60 month zero down financing.

I think we have split this hair a bit too finely, and well beyond the orginal scope of what the thread was saying.
*** *** *** ***

Finally, as I posted on page 4 of this thread, I procured my Si slightly under MSRP at $19,790. My dealer in the only dealer of the three in Vegas selling for MSRP and the only reason I got even a slight discount was we are repeat customers at that dealer. It is possible to get it under MSRP, however, it appears that the majority of dealers are selling at quite a premium at this time.

Janizary

It is something of a convoluted path:

I actually went from the tC to a GMC Crew Cab off-road package when the first round of 'family pricing' hit the market back in /MayJune, '05, getting a $30K MSRP trunk for ~$21K. We got the truck for hauling our ATV/motorcycle trailer, pop-up camper, etc., which my wife's small SUV had trouble pulling. As I said earlier in the thread, I really liked my tC, it was loads of fun, and the best 'bang for the buck' car I have owned.

In Sept. of '05 my wife's small SUV was broadsided by a Suburban. We replaced that vehicle with a Honda Pilot, which really mitigated the need for my truck. Luckily, I have a friend who really liked my truck, I made him a deal for $2K off what I paid, and picked up the Si. (It is longer than that as I was crossing shopping a few other cars, then had to wait for the Si, which finally came on X-mas Eve).

I looked into going back into the tC, particularly since the S/C was out by then, however, I gave the nod to the Si due to past Honda's I have owned, as well as the LSD, handling, etc. It could have went the other way fairly easily, due to my positive feelings on the tC from my time with it.

But it is the Si for now.

SilverRSXJezus

None taken, but just to straighten a few things out...

On the base RSX, it has a dual stage intake manifold...I believe on the RSX-S and the EP3 it is just a single stage, not dual.

Skunk

Actually my first car was a Saturn, so yes I do know a bit about pure pricing. Scion wasn't the first company to do it and they won't be the last.

Actually, if you read *my* post:
...you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself right now.

Apparently not, since SPEED magazine shows the Si as being faster and better handling than a tC with the TRD S/C, TRD exhaust system, and front strut tie bar. Looking at their times, the Si is faster to sixty, then the tC must catch up momentarily, but they hit the quarter mile at the same time with the Si having a slightly higher trap speed. Which means it's pulling again. It's top speed is also apparently higher.

I'm not saying that modding your car is bad, I've done plenty of mods to my 300zx and WRX. I'm definitely not saying you'd make your car unreliable but fast. I'm just saying, you *don't" always have a warrenty. That's just one of the many reasons I listed that you *didn't* address about why comparing modded to stock is unfair.

killerxromances

This thread gets better and better, i love scionlife.

R2D2

You've missing my point completely Skunk. If you read back a couple posts you'd see that..your
I do agree with u that not ALL aftermarket parts are warrantied, however if the dealership is going to sell the parts, install them, and than not warranty it?..seems odd.
I'm pretty sure Toyota/Scion has warrantys on parts they sell and install from the factory (and if not they'd atleast let you know).
On another note, Speed magazine should've compared the cars within the same price ranges (EX vs. tC), otherwise compare them on the same level playing field. I laugh at that comparison you and speed magazine made because its completely lopsided. Your going to tell me the Si has better handling than the tC when it didn't have any suspension mods (except for a freakin front strut bar? ) Skunk wrote: "...you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself right now?"
If anything sway bars would actually add greater benefits vs. a front strut bar... think about it
Add on top of a sway bar TRD springs & shocks, intake, better tires, etc... and additional items that would = the price of the Si. In addition to the battle, I think its only fair that put your Si on 17 inch rims and lets see what happens. I consider a modded tC with strictly factory sold items (available @ your scion dealership) a "stock" tC specially when the Si is what I'd consider a "modded EX" with a motor swap.
In any case, incase you missed it ~ I said that the two cars are pretty evenly matched when all the factors are factored in.

Janizary

tC vs. EX = tC winner in all except mileage (and perhaps a bit more civility...again, IMHO only)

SilverRSXJezus

Um..how much was the car tested in that magazine? A tC with a TRD S/C by itself should already cost nearly the same as a stock Civic Si....


Anyways, I personally think that the tC should've run faster at all the straightline testing, since I doubt having near 200 whp would only give a 15ish second 1/4, if I recall correctly.

killerxromances

I believe we ended this vs. conversation a while back guys.

Janizary

Got out to the Motorsports track today. Not so good that a Corvette Club had the rally track taken for the whole day, but I was able to get on the Flat top Auto-X course.

Given the car is still pretty low miles and I would like a bit more break-in time, I put it through the course a lot more mild than usual. Also, I still don't have new tires and better rubber, so it was a slide-o-rama with the all-seasons on!!

Given the tires were not great, handling was otherwise good, with limited body roll (for a stock car) and good suspension characteristics. Pulling through and out of corners was a blast with the LSD doing great duty in this area. I have driven a friends RSX-S with aftermarket LSD and the helical unit on the Si does a much better job than the Viscous limited slip that he had with a better positive feel, engagement, and power transfer to the correct wheel. The car could certainly benefit from a bit of lowering and more agressive spring rates, though the stock setup is pretty decent and course feel was good.

Steering took a few runs to get used to. Tactile feedback is nearly non-existant, and through the first few runs I had a tendency to oversteer due to the easy and tighter steering ratio on the car, with at least two plow spins on deep loop corners right after a short straight (the rotten all-seasons contributed to that as well, heh)

As far as the DBW, I have had a few weeks to get used to some of its foibles and feel fairly confident with it. The 2 second rev hang did pose some issues on a few turns, but I suppose I will get used to it. (I don't notice it on the street except at very low speeds anymore) I don't really notice any throttle lag, however, that might be me getting used to the throttle over the last few weeks.

On the power side it is hard to give a comment as I was not engaging the 6K+ range for the course. The few times I played around in that range power delivery was good for the short bursts needed on the limited length straights. Overall, it will be a very different game with lighter wheels, good rubber, and more agressive RPM usage.

Gear shifting was positive (1-2 only really) and I never noticed any shifting issues at all during my 4 runs. Again, with more agressive RPMS and real power output, I'll have to comment more on that later.

So, number 33 ran some light laps today, helping me get an idea of what needs to be changed, reinforcing my plans to get:

Lighter wheels
Stickier rubber
New struts/springs