Skunk

I agree on the Ecotec, it's not a very great engine. I was just putting that out there because I've heard of 1,000+hp Ecotec's so I wanted to acknowledge that it may have potential.

While I recognize that the K20 is an absolutely awesome motor, I have to disagree on one point. The only problem with the great turbo kits available for that engine is that it's stupid. The engine already runs 11.1:1 compression (all but one K20 turbo kit I've seen is for the K20A2), running forced induction on that is retarded. That being said, I've heard a lot of reports of people having no problems at all. In fact there one guy 50 miles from here that apparently runs 16psi DD and 18psi (somewhere around 500hp)with race gas, and he's been running this for two years without blowing the engine. But that doesn't change the fact that it's idiotic. I've also heard of guys running 8psi and blowing their pistons into geosynchronous orbit.

I think the K-series is the best engine Honda has ever made. The block itself is definitely one of the best ever, but the engine isn't made for forced induction.

killerxromances

Well like you were with the Ecotec, i was just throwing that out there showing that the K20 can go f/i although its set up to be a n/a beast. With companies like Spoon, a K-series spoon set up is ideal if you want to go all motor on any honda motor really. Their products are incredible, i can basically say i worship them over most companies. Them, veilside, Jic and HKS are some i praise.

The 11:1 compression can be swapped for f/i compression pistons. I know someone running i believe 8:5:1 or maybe a little lower compression than that on a B18 running 12psi daily, hes been doing that for a while. Putting out very respectable numbers with zero problems. Same concept with the K20, although not many people run f/i on the K series to begin with, but with the release of the hks series it should be interesting next year to see what kind of numbers people will be putting out.

Cya

MonkeySan

I think your math is a little fuzzy there, 'cuz the Si should be 3,047lbs with the hypotehtical driver, but you're right about the power/weight ratio. I know the Si outperforms the tC. It would be a sad engineering feat if it didn't. It isn't as if it severely outclasses the tC, however...

http://www.modernracer.com/hondacivicsi2006.html

Personally, I think the Civic EX with Navi is a better buy than the Si. These cars are all really just daily drivers (good gas mileage, some comfort options) with a little passing power, not sports cars.

killerxromances

, i'm sure i met 3,047..i'm not retarded.

Cya

Skunk

Indeed, I think the K20 and F20 motors are pretty much the best NA 2.0l 4-cyls money can buy, the K-series being slightly better. A well-built K24 -w- ITR head is probably the best NA 4-cyl platform you can get right now, and a great platform to build a F/I engine on. The only reason I didn't list the K-series in my list is that it can't match the other engines in terms of power without a low compression rebuild. I was talking about stock motors, thus the SR, 4G, and EJ stand pretty much alone unless you count like the Porsche 968 K27T. While the SR is awesome, I don't think it can hold as much power as the 4G and EJ engines can.

DelayedTurbo

First off, I'm not a salemen, I work in the parts department mostly in the bodyshop at the Ford side of my dealership. I'm stating the obvious, in your own little world you think someone is gonna sell a redesigned civic for under 20,000, your nuts...people will pay to have the new SI, its different, and majortively speaking, when people try and compare the RSX-S to the SI, they are two different beasts they are not going to interfere with one another, so cost really doesn't make a difference. If the new SI costs more then the RSX-S, its not going to change what people buy. People will buy whatever car they like better. Thats the whole point of having selection, without selection everyone should just drive a k-car ...Honestly, I hate honda's I personally think they're unreliable pieces of crap, but thats cause I've seen all the recalls. People forget that ford honors the most recalls over any other car manufacturer. So please don't think I'm a honda lover...hehe...by all means, I think they suck. But this new SI might give the Civic a better name finally, and with that better name comes a higher cost.

Skunk

The two cars are *not* different beasts. That's the problem. They no longer share the same chassis, but both cars are 2-door sport coupes with the same powerplant. They are near identical in performance. And most importantly, the Civic Si now has features that the "upscale" and more expensive Acura does not. Including the LSD, ITR gearbox, and navigation. And keep in mind that this is within the same company. I would venture to say that not only is the Si a better buy, it's a better car. It's actually very crappy business sense to have both these cars out at the same time. It's like Toyota making a Camry that outperforms the IS350 and has more features and selling it for less money. They're just shooting themselves in the foot.

If there's one thing this says, it's that the DC5 is toast come 2007.

Edit: Here's to hoping for a SH-AWD K24 Integra pumping 240+hp. Now *that* would be a sports car.

Yes.

killerxromances

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Si and Rsx-s are virtually the same car with a different body. Both aerodyamics are very close, K series, both six speeds, both have very close overall performance goodies and both are tuned almost identical. The only difference is you can get a little more on the civic than you can the rsx. Thats about it. As for peieces of crap, Honda is just as reliable as Toyota, regardless of what you know as far as recalls. All recalls are nationwide known, they don't recall and just tell employees about it. The Si has always given the civic a good name when it comes to performaning, hell even the regular civics have had a decent "name" when it comes to tuning ever since people started buying crx's, del sols and civic hatchs and swapping motors. The new Si doesn't completely blow every other civic away, its just redesigned with a better platform. Period.

Honda released the Si, in their plans for $19,990. On their website, its $19,990. I've read in a artical right before the release early this month that their would be a fairly large % mark up. If you believe that the Si is worth $25,000+ than you having been working on cars for too long. For about $5,000 you can have a Sti, for $2,000 less you can have a rsx-s, for about $2,500 more you can get an Evo8. And when it comes to $25,000 for a car, another $5,000 isn't that much and you get a true sports car. Civic Si is very nice, indeed. But not worth that kind of money, if the % mark up is final pricing as you so hopelessly claim honda is going to loose sales, Si will sell just as much as the previous model.

And for the record, people don't just buy cars because they like them. They buy a car they like and what they feel best bang for the buck. $25,000 Civic Si is hardly best performance car for the buck. $20,000 is much more in its price range.

Cya

SilverRSXJezus

Uh...exactly what two different beasts are there between the SI and the RSX, please enlighten me.

I find it very funny when you call Hondas pieces of crap, because they're nearly the same as toyota. Do you think toyota is a piece of crap? If so..then I completely agree with you. They are BOTH reliable pieces of crap.

Recalls? Yes, Honda has recalls...so does Toyota, or do you only have tunnel vision because you're a Toyota fanboy?

killerxromances

Well said.

Cya

jbae1221

i don't think he like either, he said he works on the ford side of things. maybe he likes fords... who knows...
if the Si is below 20k then i'm buying one, but i highly doubt it. i think the tc looks better than the Si, but i know the si will outperform the tc. imo. I'd buy toyota nd honda anyday over a chevy or ford.. prolly doesn't even apply to this thread, just my opinion. you know it would be cool if toyota came back with the supra. i heard that somewhere.. but who knows.

Munch

The SI is $20500 and it's a hell-of-alot of car for the money

killerxromances

Agree'd, anything more than $20,500 though, in my opinion, i'd pick a different car for the money. For instance, $24,000. And i know everyone that i know wouldn't buy the Si for that much, $19,990 yes, $20,500, yes.

And yes, Toyota does plan to bring back the supra, wether or not they will keep to their word or not on production is questionable. We all know its going to be expensive though.

Cya

Janizary

While there are quite a few dealers charging a greater or lesser market price adjustment over the Si's MSRP of $19,990, there are many that are not. Take a trip over to ToV and you can find quite a few folks who have gotten theirs for MSRP or less. I picked mine up for $19,790 + destination, or $20,340.

There are three Honda dealers here in Vegas. Two are charging MPA's ($2000 and $4000 respectively) and at those two their first Si's are still sitting on the showroom floors after a week. Frankly, the dealer charging the $4K premium has also tacked on a bunch of 'stuff' bringing the price to just shy of $30K...now who is going to pay that for an Si? Someone desperate, or with more money than sense. In that price range there are better cars to be had. For a few K more than that you are in G35C 6MT range.

Charade_Detomasso

JDM 3S-GTE is another great 2.0l 4cyl turbo motor, it is also quite excellent in NA form.

An EJ20 is good, very strong, great even, but it cant compare to a JDM 4G63 in terms of bulletproof reliability

killerxromances

Exactly. Plus, you when you push $30k you are also entering STi and evo8 range and do i need to say more?

enhanceloans

Ok.

I have owned and tuned several Honda's, Toyota's and Nissan's.

I don't hate on Honda. Most of my friends have Civic's, Integra's (inc RSX) and Accord's. My show car was a 1995 Prelude Si that I put alot of time and money into.
It was a nive car with good handling (typical of Honda) but the interior was cheap and things broke easily and Honda are extremely difficult to Dynamat they rattle unbelievably with sub systems.

I currently have a 2005 tC daily driver, a Nissan 240SX track car and a 1993 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4x4 for support and offroad.

Sporty handling Honda usually beats Toyota at least the Preludes, Civic Si's, Accords and Integra's I have driven in stock form handle way better than Toyota comparable models like Camry, Corolla, tC, xB etc (havent driven the late Celica GTS so not sure about that one). The TRD springs make my tC handle almost as good as the stock Prelude Si except the sucky Bridgestone RE92 the tC came with that have NO grip.

Performance - seems comparible overall. For $2,000 more the Civic Si has more horspower than the tC but alot less torque. However, for $3,000 ($1,000 more than Civic Si) you can get a tC w/ TRD S/C under facory warranty that will kill a stock Civic Si in BOTH horsepower and torque.

Quality - I feel Toyota / Lexus / Scoin has the best quality of Japanese automaker and that Nissan / Infiniti is now #2 with Honda / Acura as #3. My 1990 Nissan 240SX SE with the orignal KA24E has 215,000 miles on it and still running stong w great compression and no oil leaks or anything. My H23A1 powered Prelude egnine went adios at 105,000 miles (failed connecting rod bearing) with impecable mainanence (I was using the high quality fluids etc like Red Line Racing Oil since 38k miles when I bough it) the automatic transmisison failed at 120,000 miles. I have heard of many problems with Honda automatic transissions while the Toyota Supra (JZA80) supposedly one of the best made. My tC only has 11,000 miles so we'll see. But my experience with the tC and the 4Runner is that the parts and components interior, exterior and mechanical seem to be of higher quality than I experienced with my Honda.

Don't get me wrong Hondas are also great cars. I drove a 2004 Civic Si Hatch on an autocross course in a recent car comparison event and the cars transmission and handling and power delivery impressed the hell out of me. I also drove a new BMW E90 325, Pontiac GTO 6.0L, Saab 9-2X among others on this cone course and feel the 04 Civic Si Hatch would have had the lowest lap times. It was effortless the car just went where I wanted it to go with little or no understeer. I love my tC and still would prefer it as a dialy driver because of its styling, interior and amenities but the even the 2004 Si would kill it on a tight road course. Haven't driven the new Si but I can only imagine it is an improvement over the 2004 model. However on the highway at speed and in a straight iline may be a whole different story the tC has much more torque to make up for its horsepower defficiency againsts Civic Si and keep in mind peak horsepower mean very little in comparison with where it is in the powerband. Most VTEC and i-VTEC engines have lean power until 5000 or so RPM and same with their torque curves (this is also true of the 2ZZ). The tC engine has similar power to the H23A1 that was in my Prelude both have good powerbands with decent power and torque coming on before 3,000 RPM. The there is the TRD supercharger.....

killerxromances

While you obviously have more experience than me, i too came from honda and agree with most of what you say. One thing i noticed was, you said for $3,000 more on the tC you could get the s/c. Someone who has done this for years, i'm surprised you make the comback of comparing a boosted 2az to a stock k20z. That has never made sense to me. Obviously a modified tC is going to beat a stock Si. That proves nothing, the only arguing condition is the fact you can match the price and come out slightly ahead. Which again, makes no sense. Its pointless (imo) to compare a modded car to a stock car.

I've driven both new Si and and a 05' tC. Theres no comparison between the two. The Si is much faster (regardless of what people say, it is) and handles much, much better than the tC. Although it has a 8,000rpm redline (which i love) it gets up there fast, which makes up for the lack of torque. Personally, i'd rather have a higher redline vs. a 6,350rpm redline and have vtec vs. vvt-i. I like how vtec is designed vs. vvt-i while both systems are great in their own way.

tC can take off the line much faster, which is pretty obvious but once the Si gets up in the higher redline, and stays within vtec its over. As for autocross, Si takes that win too. Then again, with my xb and current set up i have also beat quite a few tCs. (stock and modded) I also know how to handle the xb which helps alot knowing the limits of what you are driving.

At any rate, i'm not trying to argue with you, more or less pointed out a few things i disagree with and or add on to.

enhanceloans

[quote="killerxromances"]That was purely a value comparison performance for dollar without voiding the factory warranty. Thanks for the additonal input. My input on the 2006 Civic Si Coupe is purely academic at this point. Since I have not yet driven the new 2006 Civic Si Coupe and you have driven both the tC and the Si I will trust your driving impressions. The Si vs tC performance comparisons are alot like comparing the Prelude Si H23A1 and Nissan 240SX w KA24DE to Integra GS-R (B18 VTEC) and Celica GTS (2ZZ). The large displacement 2.4L tend to have more torque and more torque and power lowe rin the rev range while the smaller Honda B16 / B16, K20 and Toyota 2ZZ tend to be high revving engines with less torque and more rev. There are advantages to both and I both seen torquey 4cylinders beat high revving ones and vice versa over the years. And again I agree if the 2006 Civic Si Coupe is comparable to or better than the 2004 Si Hatch in handling it would be awesome on a road course.

FYI I test drove the xB also and loved it. I think all it needs is a little more power (same is true with stock tC which is why the TRD S/C is great) if Toyota adds a 2ZZ 180hp +/- high performance option it would make a great car even better.

killerxromances

[quote="enhanceloans"]I came from building a gs-r, and i have a friend with a 03' Si. 06' Si to me, felt more firm than the 03' si and a stock gs-r. Of course, i couldn't toss it around as much as i would have liked to being i wanted to respect the wishes of the sales person. It felt like it would be great for a road course environment, of course in the end if you compare full potiental tC and Si. My final thoughts is this. If you want a car that you can build overall performance and reliability, buy the Si. If you want a car that can become a drag queen, but some lack some on road course get the tC. tC obviously is a little more comfortable.. The Si is geared for performance, interior no exception. Interior as far as seats go and how it drives, feels very much like a rsx-s in some respect. One thing i do miss is high revving though, when i was done with the gs-r i was dyno'd n/a 231whp @ 7,100rpm. Redline was 8,600. (raised obviously) With custom gearing, what i lacked on the bottom didn't phase me, i got up to 8,600rpm fast. Which played a huge beneifit in the end. Especially if i was daily driving, i could really take it easy shifting around town at 4-5rpm, since my power curve really shot up after 5,000.