rhythmnsmoke

Tha'ts S-pipe and Exhaust, don't get it twisted. And I'm probably at most about 100 - 150lbs lighter than a stock tC. That's why we could do 15.1 constant in the 1/4th with just S-pipe/Exhaust.

rhythmnsmoke

IF you paid attention more closely, he didn't let off the gas until he passed me. WHICH would have been Right Near the 1/4th of a mile mark. I just keep going after that, and he didn't realize it, and stepped back on the gas, so his letting off the gas has nothing to do with his racing ability or the validation of this race. And just so you know that he does a good job at driving. Another guy we know owns an 06 Si as well. He has an I/H/E and he raced my boy with the bone Stock 06 Si. Guess who won? The bone stock one. So, he is a decent driver. Si's are rated at 15.1 in the 1/4, I'm sorry but I don't think you can drop a whole SECOND off the 1/4 time from what reports show.

tC is rated at 15.6/15.7. Which for the most part, real world people reporting around the same #'s. I can't view your vids yet (IMAC computer), but I don't believe those are bone stock Si's.

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killerxromances

Um, stock people are running high 14's, i'm sure some could be running as low as 14.6 with a stock Si. If i remember correctly, quite a few magizines when the tC first came out tested the tC at 15.7-15.9. And if i recall, quite a few tC owners are running 15.4-15.6 stock. Your shaving about .5-.8 seconds off 1/4 time. Possible, it all depends on driver. You should know this.

killerxromances

If you brought up that 100-150lbs lighter thing earlier, i probably wouldn't have disagree'd with you as much about it. lol But still, watch the videos.

Oh, fyi: I didn't give the video of the si vs. lotus thing to make the si better, i know the lotus should be faster. I posted it simply to show another 14.1 run to show its constant, and some freak of nature ordeal.

rhythmnsmoke

Can't see the vids right now. And do you personally know the Si driver, or your just speculating that it's a stock Si? Either way, they still feel slow, even though they are faster than a stock tC. They don't provide the Uumff! that I need to have fun. It feels like a GIANT turbo lag until 4k rpm. I don't like to wait for it, and then have to keep it above 4grand just to have fun.

killerxromances

I have personally talked to the driver, he showed me a few pictures of the Si including the bay which only had a intake. I don't personally know him, but i've seen the pictures to back it up.

And i personally know an 06' Si owner that has done 1/4 bone stock at 14.86 his first run out in the Si.

rhythmnsmoke

^^Yep, and I don't know any.

TimmyT

Killer is a known honda fanboi. You won't change his mind.

You can provide countless pics, vids, or general information and he'll dismiss it with "I know a guy who...".

The Civic Si is comming up on its first anniversery. And thus far i have not seen any civic Si's touch on what a the tC has done in its first year.

In performance AND aftermarket support.

That alone should speak for itself.

killerxromances

I gave three videos of Si's doing 1/4 in the 14's, i can give you much more too. So how can you "change my mind".. I've shown my proof, you just dismiss it because you dislike me. And thats it.

Aftermarket has been slow, yes but several companies are coming out with stuff if haven't already. Majority of the stuff released within the first three months was suspension and basic motor stuff. Coming up on the 1st year? Still has a while, it was released in december but didn't hit all dealerships until 1st of january.

And rythmn, you might not know a guy because your too busy hating hondas without actually looking into it more and talking to people.

TimmyT

Killer.. no one is trying to take your wet dream from you....

I am not saying an Si can or can't do the 1320 in 14's.

What I am saying is. No matter how many pics, graphs vids, people show you. You still won't change your mind about the tC's achievements.

And I have yet to see an Si anywhere near 400 whp with a stock block and internals. And i seriously, completely doubt i will see one with in the first year.

The tC and its 2az is a better platform for aftermarket and tuning compared to the civic Si. In my opinion of course. and many opinions of people on this board i would like to think.
And the tC achievements Vs. the Civic Achievments in the first year speaks for itself.

Its already july. the aftermarket is not there like it was for the tC. So how do you expect the civic to meet the standard?

ignitionr34

I don't even give a crap about the new Si,, they probably gonna be a l'il more mod friendly to bolt ons compared to our cars
but ya know what WHO CARES! tC's are still hot cars for the price and actually seem to be BOOST friendly.

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rhythmnsmoke

I don't hate on Hondas. My boy's are Honda fan-boys. I catch more hate for having a Scion than the Honda boys around here. On the same note, why would I be looking into the Si, when I don't have one, and if I wanted to know about it, or drive it, I have friends for all that?

rhythmnsmoke

FYI, the vids posted are the same. Both are of the tC vs the 06 Si.

rhythmnsmoke

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Si was stock. My boy's Si does not sound like that. Also, those where DR's he was running. We ran 15.2 on Stock Scion tires.

killerxromances

I said he had an intake, yeah its pretty much stock but its not 100% stock. Like i said, he showed me pictures of the full car with the dates on the pictures (i think the dates were 06/20) so, sure he could lie about it but theres no reason to.

And yes, he wasn't on stock street tires but that doesn't change his time, i mean he still ran 14.1. On street tires that time would drop to around 14.5ish range, but nevertheless still 14.1.

TimmyT - Yes, i doubt you will see 400whp Si's in the first year as well, but its also a totally new motor. You can't really base it on a older design with the same platform like you can with the 2az. Minor differences between 2az tC and 2az Camry, that also helps.
Also, if you look at before the tC and Si was even released, more parts for the Si was in the developement phases than the tC, or already released. i/e/and some suspension parts were released a week prior to the offical release of the Si.

I might also add, there are very, very few tC's i know of or heard of running 400whp daily, majority of boosted tCs are between 220-310whp.. Again, so i've seen and heard. Plus, Scionspeed turbos have caused a crap load of issues.

rhythmnsmoke

Ok, lets back up a little bit. You say it's a totally new motor right, and that you can't really base it on a older design with the same platform like you can with the 2az. What older design platform are you talking about in respects to the 2az? Surely your not talking about the Camry version. If there is only "minor" differences between the 2az tC and 2az Camry, then why don't you find 400whp Camry's on boost? And why did a Camry opt to swap out their 2az, instead of boosting it to the 300+ like us tC boys?

As for the release/development of parts, you say there were Si parts before tC. That's a matter of opinion. You look at mainstream, and the only 06 Si's on the cover, or in the mags have all been company owned. Where are the privately owned Si features, if the market was so much more booming compared to the tC? You know and I know that the 2az does not have some history of aftermarket support. But the history of the k-series engine is a lot stronger, yet STILL they are not flying off the shelves with builds of the Si when you compare it to the growth of the 2az from the tC, when it SHOULD be the other way around.

You said you seen most boosted tC's in the 220-310 range. Where are the Si's even putting out THAT much? You would think you wouldn't have to look far, if they were putting down the #'s boost or N/A otherwise. There's even a 300hp N/A tC 2az, and we know N/A is the LEAST sought after route.

FYI.....ScionSpeed dosen't even existence, where have you been man. That company went sour almost a year ago.

killerxromances

^
I know scionspeed went under, i used that as an example because i figured thats what he was talking about since i don't know any other turbo kit that produced that much whp, and i know of no one running 400whp period except company owned scions, and some of them aren't even using the 2az. Also, show me a 300whp n/a 2az, i'm not proving you wrong but i'd like to see it. I mean, you never showed me a 200whp 2az and thats a large jump so can you show me a dyno run or a website providing information? Again, i'd like to see this, not proving you wrong, i'm just interested in seeing this. Because so far, n/a for parts, nothing touches near 300whp.

Also, would you like me to find a n/a 06' Si in the 200whp+ range for you? It shouldn't be hard at all, let me know if you would like me to because i will. Yes, k-series have a much stronger aftermarket support than pretty much any other motor out there in the under 25k mark with a few exceptions obviously.

If you look at the 2az and you look at the k20z in the Si, the k20 is a completely new design. Yes, it shares parts of many other series motors but as far as the total design goes, its new. The 2az is well based on the camry 2az. I'm not saying the motors are equal, nor am i saying they are the same. I'm just saying that you can find many parts on the 2az (tc) platform that you can on the camry 4cyl, much more are the same than different.

Why don't you see any 300whp camrys? Well, its a camry. Is it not possible to? Of course it is, but its all about how its marketed. They are out there, 300whp+ camry's but its rare because the way the car is marketed, the people who buy them aren't interested in racing. Well, majority aren't. I mean, if i were to own an aftermarket company i sure wouldn't put much thought in the camry either.. The new ones i'd consider way before the old ones, but still. Majority of owners aren't looking to race, or make whp. Some are, just like any other car but i think you get my point.

I perfer n/a, and many people still do in the honda community depending on the motor. I mean the b16c5 for example, your pretty much limited to n/a because of its design. F/i would be suicide. So its still there, but yes i get what your saying. Boost is much more popular now and it should be, its the fastest, cheapest way to make power.

rhythmnsmoke

The company owned Scions are well over 400whp and doing it on a 2az (well, at least ZPI is). And I've already showed you a 300whp N/A 2az. It was the one you argued about being that it was a drag car, when the whole point was not about the car surrounding it, but that the engine is the same as the production engine, and it's pumping out 300 ponies N/A.
Remember




Not necessary, as the car already comes with 197 @ the crank. Therefore, adding an i/h/e you get 200ish whp. tC comes with 160 @ crank. Obviously i/h/e is not going to put it 200ish whp. You need 1 or 2 more components and you would be there. You are also trying to compare an engine that is built more towards N/A builds (high compression) against an engine that responds better to F/I (because of factory low compression). So, the comparison is not even valid. I can turn around and do the same thing, but on the F/I aspect, and tell you to show me a 300whp "privately owned" Si on F/I, better yet, show me an Si over 220 N/A.

Not from what I've heard. Maybe different from the RSX engine, but supposedly the RSX one is not the one that should be compared to it.


You can't just say you perfer N/A and that's it. You have to go the route where the engine is most efficient. 2az it's boost. K20 it's N/A. You have to cater to that engine's design, and not say..."Oh well, if you can't build it N/A, then it sucks". I say the same thing about the K20...."If you can't build it out of the shop with good F/I, then it sucks". You have to stop being narrow minded, and look at the big picture. One is better for boost, one is better for N/A. Neither Suck, so don't try to down play the 2az because it dosen't like N/A parts as much as it does boost, because I don't down play the Si motor because it likes dosen't like boost as much as it does N/A parts.

DouBLeJ16

Wow, a 15.2 for the lotus driver.. That's just sad.

That car should be deep into the 13s.

killerxromances

Yes i know you have to go by what the motor is designed for, if you haven't noticed, i tend to drive cars that are more suited for n/a over boost.

Also, you have showed me a picture of the drag tc (hardly a tc but lets just say it is so we don't go into it again), you haven't showed me any detailed information on it, or a dyno run showing it hitting 300whp. Unless you just read it was 300whp and just automatically believed it. Show me more than just a picture of it and i'll believe it, otherwise that information isn't true information. I still haven't seen proof that its even a 2az, its not the body, chasis of a tC. Lets see the specs!

Also, i have showed you much information supporting the fact the k20z in the Si is downplayed on factory specs, all companies i have looked into have rated the Si higher than factory on crank out put, unless you think a 7-17hp drivetrain loss is enough to justify 197hp. I don't think so. lol Would be cool if it was true though.

I'll try to find some dyno runs, on 8th gen Si forums they have a 1/4 run sheet showing the times, some offer mods, whp ratings, and so forth. One 219whp n/a Si there, but provided no dyno sheet.

Also, theres a company cybernationmotorsports.com that is releasing turbo kits for the 06' Si soon so i hear, that puts the Si at 279whp on their "Stage 1" kits. I believe the psi levels are some where around 11-12psi, which for how the motor is designed, thats pretty good. I know the tC will out boost the Si, the k20a2 in the K series line up is best comparable for boost to boost on the 2az, but thats not what we are talking about anyway.

I'm busy now, i'll check later and see what dynos i can show you. A friend of mine with an Si says theres a company releasing a port and polish package, and with i/h/e, crank should yeild 240-250whp. I don't know the company or what hes talking about, i'll find out if you want.