JUMBO

Don't be so cavalier! $15K is a lot of money, whether you realize it or not. This is the second largest purchase that people will make, and it's important that I keep it special for them.

Back to the Oscars!

motozen

hehehe true.

mfbenson

This intrigues me... could you elaborate? To me, it seems like having a well-informed customer would make a salesman's life easier, not more difficult.

It also seems to me that they create a lot of headaches for manufacturers, since their tests don't always reproduce real-world conditions...

JUMBO

On the whole, Consumer's Reports (CR) do pick higher quality products in the tests. I agree that their tests do not replicate real-world environments, and when it comes to their testing, I take issue when they rate subjective items, like speaker sound quality and olive oil(!). When something needs subjective assesment, that is up to the buyer and the buyer alone. I can tell you that this speaker sitting here is the greatest sounding speaker ever in the history of mankind, but if you don't think so, that's all that matters.

So, CR benefits (for the most part) the producer of the good (Toyota Motor Sales), but at the expense of the sales and service people down the chain.

CR would have a consumer utilize the salesperson's time and energy to gain all the information that they need to make an informed purchase decision, and when they are ready, purchase it from an online source or from the retailer at VERY little or NO profit whatsoever. It seems that CR has a major problem with businesses that sell things to make a profit in the free-enterprise society which we all live. What exactly is the problem with a business making a legitimate profit? Couldn't it be argued that a business provides many, many intangibles in the sales process that consumers take for granted? For example, if there were only online car dealerships, where would you take your test drives? If there were only online electronics retailers, where would you go to listen to the speakers that you are considering? If you have an issue with your new purchase, where do you take it if you've ordered it online? Will you be able to speak to the same person that you did business with?

People take brick-and-mortar business for granted, and we now live in a society where profit is regarded as evil. Why? This country's economy has been built on the tenats of free-enterprise and the free market. What is wrong with making a profit, especially if the consumer gets good service, a good product, and a pleasurable experience?

The other issue with CR is that they feel that it is a consumer's right to know exactly how much profit is made on an automobile, and how to dwindle that number to nothing. I see nothing in there on how to cheat the grocery store out their profit on a loaf of bread or how to bypass the profit that a department store makes on a shirt, but by all means, take away the car dealer's ability to make profit. CR does not respect us, and that should explain my attitude towards them.

So, CR helps Toyota because makes a great product. They usually get that part right. But beyond that, CR is out to take money out of my employer's and, more importantly, my pocket. That doesn't sit well with me at all.

LATER

tcperconti

Umm, you do know that the name of the magazine is Consumer Report?!
The whole purpose of the mag is to be an advocate for the consumer. Equipping the consumer with the information they need to make informed decisions and to avoid spending extra money unnecessarily.

Of course, you'd rather that CR remain silent so that customers would pay extra for extended warranties, undercoating, and pay full retail for floormats.

Hardly a fair comparison. When was the last time you had to haggle over the price of a loaf of bread? Or the price of a shirt?

The auto industry set up this adversarial environment. The dealership tries to maximize profits... the conumser tries to minimize expenses. Until dealerships change the rules, that is the way things will be. You can't pin THAT on CR. There's also a big difference between paying an extra $0.10 or so on each loaf of bread that has a fixed price, and paying $1000's more on a vehicle with a floating price. (and likely purchase another vehicle 4-6 years down the road)

It might be convenient to pin the blame on CR for the current situation, but that isn't where the blame needs to be placed. It falls squarely on the shoulders of the dealerships themselves. They're the ones who run deceptive ads, push high-margin extras like "undercoating". They're the ones who negotiate on the price. It comes down to being willing to take less of a profit to make a sale.

JUMBO

I do not blame CR for anything. I was simply asked to clarify my position on CR in an earlier post. I agree that there is an adversarial relationship in the car industry, and that has been fostered over years and years. Yes there are deceptive and immoral business people in this industry, but there are immoral and deceptive people in EVERY industry. And to say that the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the dealership is ignorant. Due to things like CR, as well as the internet, consumers know ALMOST as much about our product as we do. I would say that it would incredibly difficult for a dealer to be shady about a deal in today's litigious society. I'm sure it still happens, but alas, there will always be bad apples.

And as far as your assumption regarding what I would like CR to do and not to do, be careful. I take pride in my integrity, and treat my customers how I expect to be treated. I do not want customers to pay for anything that they are not willing to, and that I wouldn't buy myself. I have been very careful not to flame on my posts, and I felt that I explained my position on CR pretty accurately.

I feel that if CR got its way, all businesses would sell their wares for no profit. But if that happens, than the traditional outlets for consumers such as yourself to purchase said items would go under, ultimately making it MORE difficult for comsumers to shop. Competition for the consumer's dollar does everyone good, but our economy is set up on profit, not charity.

It ALL boils down to this: If the consumer is honest with the dealer, and the dealer is honest with the consumer, than everyone will win, EVERY time.

cliffy1

Ummm... Earth to tcperconti... what do you think Scion is about? Its about changing that confrontational dynamic, yet this thread illustrates that this is not what consumers expect. They expect confrontation, negotiation and deception. Many consumers are not at all happy with Scion because they took away all their fun they learned from CR.

I know it was dealers who started this. I also know that there are a number of dealers who would love to put an end to it, but can't. They can't because if they did, consumers using the CR methods would literally run them out of business. CR is a great way to learn about the product and its also a great way to learn how to use honest information from a dealer against him. It ends up rewarding those dealerships who cling to the old style of selling.

Believe me... its a vicious cycle. Consumers don't trust us because too many in our indusrty lie on a consistent bases and we don't trust consumers becuase they lie to us on such a consistent basis. When a customer says "I just need to talk to my wife and I'll get right back to you. Don't worry, I'll be back tonight to buy it." is actually code for "thanks for your time and the honest information. I'll have very good memories of this experience when I'm driving my new car that I'm buying from *****-cars Motors for $100 less than you offered."

tcperconti

Duh. Of course I understand that, and I agree. If you had bothered to read any of my posts on this forum, then you would know that I greatly appreciate the pure pricing position that Scion has taken.

Look at all of the car companies out there. Except for Saturn, Mini, and Scion, I don't know of any other company that have no-nonsense pricing. so while adding Scion to the mix is a step in the right direction.... "we're not there yet."

Well, it seems that based on reports on this forum, Scion dealers aren't immune to the old ways of doing business either.

I experienced a "good cop, bad cop" scenario when I bought my xB. The salesmen were great. The transaction was smooth. Then I went in to do the financing. I have stellar credit (over 730 score) I received the hard-sell for the extended warranty (which I did decide to take) and an even harder sell for the security system (which I refused).

So excuse me if I am not to sympathetic to the poor "good" dealerships that are out there. Because it's all about business.

Chicken and egg. Consumers often times feel the need to lie because of the high-pressure the salesmen place on getting people to purchase. In their zeal to seal the deal, they push potential customers into situations that they didn't want to find themselves in. So to extricate themselves from that, they tell a lie. Don't push the customer, and they won't be put in a position to lie.

If you think about why a customer felt the need to give that answer, you will see it is because a salesman asked "so, should I write this up and get you in this car?"

Hey, I'm not faulting them, they ARE salesmen after all. That's their job to SELL.


I've purchased about 13 new cars over the past 26 years (avg of 1 every 2 years, alternating for myself and my wife)... and there has ALWAYS been pressure exerted somewhere along the process, Scion included.

cliffy1

Nope... that's not what it takes to get lied to. I've been doing this for over 11 years and I still can't read all the lies I get told. When I was on the Toyota side, I tried as hard as possible to be as far form the typical car salesman as I could. I didn't pressure, I didn't lie and went out of my way to make sure the customers were comfortable at all times. I still lost a large number of sales to other dealers because the customer used my good nature and good information against me.

Many cusotmers were delighted at the fact that I gave them a price and didn't try to tie them to the chair. They were delighted becuase I didn't make them feel uncomrotable as they headed out my door and drove straight to my competitors. Those competitors would make them uncomfortable so they would give up and buy from them.

Scion at least gives the honest guys the ability to compete. If customers still insist upon patronizing high pressure, low service dealers, they do it in spite of the fact that they don't have to.

JUMBO

And that's the point. No one FORCES anyone to do ANYTHING. You control your own destiny, not me or any other salesperson. Do what feels right to you. tcperconti, you said that you were 'hard sold' a warranty. How is that they did something that made you uncomfortable, yet you rewarded that with a purchase? You had your chance, and you let it slip away.

The more that people patronize poor service dealers, the longer the problem will exist.

LATER

luckydog

a couple of weeks ago i satrted looking to buy an xB. i went to the closest dealer and ask for a broucher. they did not have any. i asked them about the R.S. 2.0. they were not sure when they would be out and could not find out. they also did not have any to look at. i went up the road to a big auto center to look again. this dealer did not have any brouchers either. they did have a couple xB's so i could sit in it and scratch and sniff. the salesman asked if i wanted to drive it i told him yes buti was not going to buy it because i was looking for the yellow one. he had never heard of a yellow one. he went off to find out some info for me. he said they should be getting one in march. on the test drive i noticed that they had a cardboard mock up radio. i asked what that was and was told that the car does not come with a radio. he even said that the car doesn't come with anything it is all options or extras. after the drive i thanked him and left. i went to amother dealer and asked about the yellow one. this guy told me that he had four on the way and should be getting them with his next allocation. he thaught that they would be in in march. i said i would take one. knowing about this pure price thing. we sat down and started talking and asked what kind of options i wanted. i told him i just wanted the car as it comes. he said he could not sell it to me like that. with the special edition i had to spend at least $3,000.00 thats right $3,000.00 in extras. he said leather interior and a sunroof was preferred. at least he had brouchers. i told him no and left.

the first place i stopped had no answers and could not help. so i would not buy from them. the second place were liars. the broucher and CR list a radio as standard equipment. the third place wanted to make max money by forcing you to buy expensive options or they wouldn't sell you the car. i understand them so i wouldn't buy from them either.

if i had not been informed about what is was looking for or what i wanted i could have been taken advantage of buy less than honest salesman.

so i would think that as a salesman you should know everything that there is to know about your product. and be willing to share that information and not think that someone is going to use it against you somewhere else. i thaught that it was the sales manager that decides to sell or not sell. a salesman should entertain all offers. even the rediculas ones. let the people who make the call make it.

i only took one test drive but if i was refused the chance or made to qualify for the chance. i would move on even if i ended up paying more someplace else. as a salesman shouldn't who demonstrate your product.

there is alot of things that kill deals. not knowing your product or what it comes with. making someone take something extra so they can get what they want. you might remind them of the guy who ran over his dog.

to fault someone for knowing what they want and how much they want to spend just doesn't seem right. if you lose a sale for being honest things happen if you make a sale by being dishonest just remember things happen.

i found a dealer and ordered my car. no hassle no trouble no problem no extras. if i save a little great if i spend a little too much so what.

cogito ergo spend
i think therefore i buy

cliffy1

Gads I hate hearing stuff like this. It kills me that dealers are still pulling crap like this. I'm glad you kept searching for a dealer to do things the right way. Too often, people stick with the lousy dealers and just beat themselves silly in the process.

I do want to make a comment about the stereo though. Not one single Scion enters this country with a stereo in it. None. They are installed either at the port or at the dealer level. Some dealers are having them installed at the port, but most don't. If the dealer is doing things right, they wait until they sell the car and install the stereo the customer requests. It comes free with a single disc and if the customer doesn't want to pay the $395 for the 6 disc, that is the one we install.

It sounds like that one dealer didn't do a good job of explaining that. The stereo does come with it, but they don't install it until you buy it.

JUMBO

I'm glad that you chose to purchase where you were treated properly. I regret that it took you four visits to find a dealer worth a s#it, but you made out in the end, and the crap dealers did not make a sale.

And I like your little sig at the end there. Should I be flattered?

LATER

mfbenson

Upon consderation, I agree that Consumer Reports is generally hostile towards business in general and auto retailers, so I can see why you have a negative opinion of them.

However, I don't see anything wrong with knowing how much profit the dealer is making. I mean, it makes my blood boil to see the car I traded in selling for thousands more than I got for it. If I know that the dealer made squat on the car I bought, it placates me somewhat. If I know that the dealer made a killing on the new car AND a killing on my trade in... well, then in that case CR is providing a good service.

I too got the "hard sell" from the finance guy. In my case, I rejected their financing and their extended warranty and just went with a loan I had already arranged on my own. But I still bought the car from that dealership, because there are only two other toyota dealerships conveinent to me, and I've had even worse experiences at both. Granted, it was the toyota departments, not the scion departments, but i figure the service departments and finance departments will be one and the same whether its a scion or toyota.

We are probably going to buy another scion soon. I will probably use the same dealership as the last one. This time we will walk if they try the hard sell again. And I've got the Scion Customer Service number in my cell phone if they really annoy me.

tcperconti

I decided to get the extended warranty because the details of the plan were appealing to me. Prior to entering the finance office, I wasn't decided one way or another whether I would get it. So it wasn't a reward to the finance guy for the hard-sell, but a good investment (based on my finances) for me... and I wasn't going to make an emotional decision to pass on the warranty simply to try and "punish" the finance guy. If the guy didn't tell me about it at all, I would've been fine with that too.

The point for my mentioning my experience is to cut directly to cliffy1's assertion:
So I don't want to hear this garbage that Scion dealerships are different. People are people and human nature is universal. As long as Scion dealerships are manned with people, those dealerships will be no different than others. PURE PRICING addresses only one aspect of the car buying experience. There's more to it than price. But it is a good start.

And what does this say then about the future of changing the auto purchasing dynamics if a company "designed" to change that acts in the same cynical way?

-------
My xB purchasing experience overall has been the best so far of any new car I've purchased. But the financing phase of it has been the WORST. (the details of the loan itself were excellent, no complaints there)

wooky1976

I've witness one incident last week at my dealership where a lady walked out of the dealership because what she researched in the INTERNET said no one should buy at sticker price.

I know I am a sales person, but I honestly believe people should buy cars at sticker or whatever the price is posted. Buying a car shouldn't be a flea market experience lol.

I can't believe the horrifying stories I hear from people on this forum. I would recommend to go to www.scion.com then look for the closest dealer in your neighborhood, go to their website, checkour their inventory and the posted price and any disclaimer they have in their. Print out the stuff you want then go their to test drive it and if they tell you other stuff than whatever is on their website tell them that's what their website says and that you'll go to a dealership where they follow Scion's purchase policy.

mfbenson

I can report that the second time was better in some ways and worse in others. They tried to not give me such a hard sell in finance, but on certain items it was just as bad. And getting their service department to do their job on installing the options I bought was a miserable experience that did indeed drive me to call Scion. While I have continued to recommend Scion to friends, I also point out to them to not use the dealership that I did.

boostedscion

wow...this is one interesting post..

TuningIsLife

Ok After reading this for the last hour because I was annoyed at Fitz, I am dredging this back up from the dead.

There were a lot of good points made and a lot of stereotypes reveiled.

I personally have been selling Toyota/Scions for the last 4 months and hate it. Why? Internet ******. People who go ok well this dealership down the road has "more value added" so I will go to them since they are 20 minutes away buy the Scion tC from them even though you were knowledgeable and had the car there and I live close to you. This burns my ___. I got into this to help people Scion, I got tired of hearing the dealer didn't know squat. I know everything there is on Scions. One of the sales people here asked me "Are you a Scion expert?" yes "Is that cause you like them, or cause you sell them? " It's cause I own one.

I belive that a "delivered internet price" should not exist. Scion pure price was established for one reason and one reason only.
TO MAKE LIFE SIMPLE.
Think about it. Who is the brand geared towards? 18-25 yr olds. At 20, when I purchased a Scion on my own, I went to the dealership because I saw it before it hit the states, I liked the xB and I ordered one. Did I know anything about haggling? About best value? No I saw a car I liked that was 4 doors, power everything, plenty of headroom (6' tall), black and that I could purchase myself, on my own, without my parents.

That is what Scion and pure pricing is designed for. Not so 60yr old men and women (no offence Tomas) can go cruise around cause they think it is quirky and a good value. It was designed for people like me, the guys who know nothing about car sales, who like to hook up cars and go to shows. Do I go to car shows to go "hey look at me I sell Scions you should come visit?" NO. I got to show off my ride and see what people have done and to share my insight.

To me, THAT is a value. Someone who connects to you on your level. It is a great feeling when I get someone in, and I get them talking about Scions and I start showing off my ride, and the shows and Get-togethers I have been to. To get them as excited about the purchase they are going to make as I am, that, my friends, is a good feeling.

So to all those who go, hey I can drive 20 minutes to get something $50 cheaper on a $16,000 car, who cares about the honest sales person. Remember, I, as well as other dealers, make a living off doing this and because of people like you, I am not making a living.

End rant.

Scott17

Always remember- Good salesmen sell, bad salesmen whine (and starve). If the deal is balancing on $50, suck it up or lose the sale.