Notices
Maintenance & Car Care Tune-ups and shake-downs...

Anyone use synthetic???

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-26-2006, 08:11 PM
  #161  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
Big Sky Scion
SL Member
 
SciontCya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: six-two-six
Posts: 4,120
Default

"Also remember, that all synthetics are not necesarrily the same. Synth oils ARE dino oil, 100%"

That's what I'm talking about.
SciontCya is offline  
Old 10-26-2006, 08:14 PM
  #162  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

Originally Posted by SciontCya
"Also remember, that all synthetics are not necesarrily the same. Synth oils ARE dino oil, 100%"

That's what I'm talking about.
Oh ok. Yeah. Their base is, but their chemical additives are definately produced. Hence, "synthetic." Made in a lab and added to base petroleum oils.
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 12:33 AM
  #163  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
vintage42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,735
Default

Originally Posted by web
... Oil will break down on it's own without the help of your engine also. A lot of people don't know that but it's true.
So oil breaks down sitting in an engine that does not run?
Does oil also break down just sitting in the can?
vintage42 is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 12:47 AM
  #164  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
vintage42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,735
Default

Originally Posted by engifineer
Also remember, that all synthetics are not necesarrily the same. Synth oils ARE dino oil, 100%. Nothing is made in the lab per se...
Wikipedia says synthetic oil can be made without using petroleum oil, as Germany did in WW2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil
Amsoil says their synthetic oil is made from synthetic base stocks:
https://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx#whataresynth
SynLube also says "SynLube™ Synthetic Super Lubricants are 100% man-made Syn-Sols and NO petroleum is used in the production":
https://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx#whataresynth:

So some synthetic oils are made from enhanced petroleum oil, but other synthetic oils are made without petroleum.
vintage42 is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 12:49 AM
  #165  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
Big Sky Scion
SL Member
 
SciontCya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: six-two-six
Posts: 4,120
Default

Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by web
... Oil will break down on it's own without the help of your engine also. A lot of people don't know that but it's true.
So oil breaks down sitting in an engine that does not run?
Does oil also break down just sitting in the can?
No, because the inside of an engine contains acids and other contaminants from combustion byproducts.

Oil in "cans" or otherwise known as bottles are in inert plastics which have no such contamination.

Scott
SciontCya is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 12:53 AM
  #166  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
Big Sky Scion
SL Member
 
SciontCya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: six-two-six
Posts: 4,120
Default

If the oil is made from group IV or V then it is a true synthetic. If it is made up of any base stock other then the above it is not synthetic. Now in the USA the word synthetic is only a marketing term so they can call anything they want to synthetic. This was not always the case and you have Castrol to thank for it. Most so called synthetics sold over the counter in the USA are not true synthetics. M1, Amsoil and Redline are all 100% synthetic and do NOT have any dino in them at all not even as a carrier for additives. If you review the groups and how they are processed it will explain a lot to you.

I borrowed an answer from a fellow oil-freak on another forum. That is the answer.
Synthetics MAY contain dino, but true synthetics are most assuredly NOT dino.

Scott
SciontCya is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 12:36 PM
  #167  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
vintage42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,735
Default

Originally Posted by SciontCya
Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by web
... Oil will break down on it's own without the help of your engine also. A lot of people don't know that but it's true.
So oil breaks down sitting in an engine that does not run? ...
No, because the inside of an engine contains acids and other contaminants from combustion byproducts....
Didn't you mean to say "yes" -- the oil breaks down because of the acids and contaminates?
And don't you really mean to say "no" -- that clean oil cannot break down on its own, unless there is help from the engine to make the acids and contaminants?
Actually, acids and contaminants do not break down oil. The detergent additives in oil serve to neutralize acids and bond to contaminants to keep them in suspension. When the addditives are used up, the acidity will then rise and contaminants may settle out, but that does not break the oil itself down. Oil is broken by long use and heat that shear and cook the oil molecules.
vintage42 is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 01:32 PM
  #168  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

Not only corrosive acids damage the oil, but just the air around it does as well. Oxidation, as I stated above, will react with the chemicals in the oil and break it down.

I am not sure about this, but even sitting on the shelf, because the quarts are not vacuum sealed, air can still penetrate the cap seal and oxidize the oil molecules. I've never opened an oil quart that was vacuum sealed, just that regular cap with lock seal.

But, I guess it would depend on how they put those sealed caps on too. Mason jars can be heated to have the air escape and form a seal on the lids without any type of plastic seal like when you open a ketchup bottle. Maybe they do something like that to preserve the shelf life of the oil.
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 01:36 PM
  #169  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

As oxidation occurs, oil begins to break down chemically. You may not really be able to tell by site or color either, but if you feel oil that's been sitting out for about 2 weeks compared to oil just opened from a quart, the lubricity is totally different. One feels like you added water to it and the other feels like oil. With heat added to natural decompostition, it just keeps breaking down. It comes out black b/c of that and the varnish and sludge that forms in the engine as it breaks down.
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 01:42 PM
  #170  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

I think it's a common misconception about that. The oil itself is not engineered per say, but all the chemical additives they add to the base oil are. Those are what are "synthesized" in labs.
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 02:02 PM
  #171  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

Wikipedia:
Synthetic oil and synthetic blends

Synthetic lubricants were invented initially for high temperature gas turbine/jet engine applications where traditional mineral-derived lubricants provided inadequate performance. In the mid 1970s, synthetic motor oils were formulated and commercially applied for the first time in automotive applications. Improving the efficiency of lubricants, synthetic lubricants made wear and tear on gears far less than on the former petroleum based lubricants, reduced the incidence of oil oxidation and sludge formation, and allowed for extended drain intervals. Today, synthetic lubricants are used in modern day automobiles to lubricate nearly all lubricated components often with superior performance and longevity as compared to non-synthetic alternatives.

Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, the molecules in the synthetic oil were artificially synthesized polyalpha-olefins, which are polymers specially designed to have improved motor oil properties. These polymers are made by bonding together alpha-olefin monomers which provide numerous flexible branching groups on the polymer molecule's backbone. Because this side branching interferes with the ability of the molecules to line up compactly next to each other, the flexible molecules can slide past each other more easily and the synthetic oil has good flow ability even at low temperatures. The molecules could be made large enough and "softer" to retain good viscosity at higher temperatures, yet the side branching interferes with solidification and therefore allows flow at lower temperatures. Thus, although the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these synthetic motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over the traditional petroleum base. Their specially designed properties allow a wider temperature range at higher and lower temperatures and often include a lower pour point. Because the viscosity changes much less with temperature, these synthetic oils need little or no viscosity index improvers that are used with the traditional petroleum based oils. The viscosity index improvers are the oil components most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages and wears out. Because these synthetic oils have little or no viscosity improver content, they do not degrade as quickly as traditional motor oils. However, they still fill up with particulate matter like the conventional oils do, so the oil filter still fills and clogs up with time and must still be changed periodically. Synthetic oil still needs to be changed periodically; but some synthetic oil suppliers suggest the intervals between oil changes can be longer, sometimes as long as 10,000 - 15,000 miles between oil changes. The same SAE system for designating motor oil viscosity applies to synthetic oils also.

Tests have shown that this fully true synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in many respects, providing better engine protection, performance, and better flow in cold starts than petroleum-based motor oil. Until recently the price difference between petroleum and synthetic motor oils was significant, however with the recent rise in the cost of petroleum the gap is closing. Since some companies of synthetic oil warrant their oils for extended drain intervals, then in the majority of situations synthetic oil actually saves the end consumer more money. Synthetic blend oil is a blend of full synthetic oil and conventional petroleum-based oil, a compromise between full synthetic quality and economy. The cost is intermediate between full synthetic oil and conventional oil. The benefits of synthetic oil are at least partially provided at a lower cost per oil change to the consumer.
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 03:48 PM
  #172  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
vintage42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,735
Default

Originally Posted by web
Not only corrosive acids damage the oil, but just the air around it does as well... As oxidation occurs, oil begins to break down chemically. You may not really be able to tell by site or color either, but if you feel oil that's been sitting out for about 2 weeks compared to oil just opened from a quart, the lubricity is totally different. One feels like you added water to it Oxidation, as I stated above, will react with the chemicals in the oil and break it down. I am not sure about this, but even sitting on the shelf, because the quarts are not vacuum sealed, air can still penetrate the cap seal and oxidize the oil molecules. ...
Learn something every day. I am worried about a couple of cases of synthetic I bought on sale last year. I wonder if the oil has gone bad already.
vintage42 is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 03:52 PM
  #173  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

If it's sealed, it should be ok. But again, that's questionable depending on the seal itself. What type of synthetic is it? Make sure it's in a dry, room temp area and you should be ok. Don't leave it out in the cold b/c cold air has more oxygen and could penetrate the cap more. Again, that's a theory of mine, but it sounds like it makes sense......haha
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 03:53 PM
  #174  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

My other comment about oil sitting for 2 weeks was to say if it was sitting out in the open, exposed to the air, for 2 weeks. Sealed it should be ok.
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:29 PM
  #175  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
Big Sky Scion
SL Member
 
SciontCya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: six-two-six
Posts: 4,120
Default

Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by SciontCya
Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by web
... Oil will break down on it's own without the help of your engine also. A lot of people don't know that but it's true.
So oil breaks down sitting in an engine that does not run? ...
No, because the inside of an engine contains acids and other contaminants from combustion byproducts....
Didn't you mean to say "yes" -- the oil breaks down because of the acids and contaminates?
And don't you really mean to say "no" -- that clean oil cannot break down on its own, unless there is help from the engine to make the acids and contaminants?
Actually, acids and contaminants do not break down oil. The detergent additives in oil serve to neutralize acids and bond to contaminants to keep them in suspension. When the addditives are used up, the acidity will then rise and contaminants may settle out, but that does not break the oil itself down. Oil is broken by long use and heat that shear and cook the oil molecules.
Meant to say YES, and oil goes bad inside of an even non-running engine.
SciontCya is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:33 PM
  #176  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
vintage42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,735
Default

Originally Posted by SciontCya
... oil goes bad inside of an even non-running engine.
How long does that take?
Is there any way to tell when it has gone bad?
How often should oil be changed in a car that is in storage?
Or is it better to drain the oil out of the engine before storing a car?
vintage42 is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:37 PM
  #177  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by SciontCya
... oil goes bad inside of an even non-running engine.
How long does that take?
Is there any way to tell when it has gone bad?
Is it better to drain the oil out of the engine before storing a car?
It depends on the oil, air temperature, humidity......many factors. Conventional is around the 3000 mile/3 month mark (90 or so days before it breaks down substantially). Synthetic all depends on the chemical additives.

Only way to tell is on a chemical level. You must be able to chemically seperate the oil from it's additives to see what you have left to what you started with. Also, flashpoint tests will change as the oil ages, viscosity will deminish, ...and more.

That I would say no. If you're storing your car, it is a good idea to have it started periodically (2-3 time per month). If that's not possible, I would then check with a good mechanic or high performance auto owners club. If they store their cars, they want them kept in top shape so they would know who to ask. I would say not to drain though, b/c the oil in there also prevents any rust build up from excess humidty and moisture in the environment. It all depends.
web is offline  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:11 PM
  #178  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
vintage42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,735
Default

Originally Posted by web
Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by SciontCya
... oil goes bad inside of an even non-running engine.
How long does that take?
Is there any way to tell when it has gone bad?
Is it better to drain the oil out of the engine before storing a car?
It depends on the oil, air temperature, humidity......many factors. Conventional is around the 3000 mile/3 month mark (90 or so days before it breaks down substantially). ..
How long does conventional oil stay good in the non-running engine that you were talkiing about?
vintage42 is offline  
Old 10-28-2006, 03:16 AM
  #179  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member

SL Member
iTrader: (1)
 
jwaggz82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 6,259
Default

^ a few months. (3-4ish) - it all depends on the oil.
jwaggz82 is offline  
Old 10-28-2006, 02:12 PM
  #180  
web
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
web's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 2,338
Default

Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by web
Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by SciontCya
... oil goes bad inside of an even non-running engine.
How long does that take?
Is there any way to tell when it has gone bad?
Is it better to drain the oil out of the engine before storing a car?
It depends on the oil, air temperature, humidity......many factors. Conventional is around the 3000 mile/3 month mark (90 or so days before it breaks down substantially). ..
How long does conventional oil stay good in the non-running engine that you were talkiing about?

About 3 months before it breaks down a good bit and loses a lot of it's lubricity factors.
web is offline  


Quick Reply: Anyone use synthetic???



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:44 PM.