cvrefugee

You know, I didn't know people here at ScionLife could be so intolerant of other people's views. I won't be coming back, at least for a long time. Deleting my bookmark now.

WeDriveScions

Grr....

You present arguements based on studied years of Theology and it cascades into a hate fest of opinion and bias.....

CVREFUGEE....

I would have to accept the King James Bible as a standard in interpreting the original greek, for the sake of the debate regarding Mormon Theology, as you agree that this is the Text which the LDS church adopts as its standard....

I solely presented that the LDS church has taken those verses out of context and in that way, truely misinterpreted their meaning.... YOU MUST present verses and their interpretation within their context.... Not doing so is very dangerous....

For instance... I have tattoos, but in Leviticus 19:9, it says, "Do not cut your bodies for the dead, or put tattoo marks on yourself, for I am the LORD"... which has been removed out of its context greatly.... This chapter is a discussion of the old covenant rules placed on isreal to protect and keep them healthy and holy... Examples of this included circumcision and not eating pork....

If you were to analyse that verse alone, you would say.... Tattoos are not permissable... but you'd miss the previous verses....

Verse 26: "Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it."

Verse 27: "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

This is that danger of not using context.... and not understanding the true apologetics of the Bible and it's history.

You discussed Baptism for the dead based on one verse, and I showed the context which that verse fell into did not represent what you said, including many verses within the whole of the NT, which showed differently...

You discussed Faith vs. Works, which I showed the context of that chapter and many, many verses which discussed otherwise,,,,,

and you showed the neccessity of Baptism for salvation, which I showed the context and present many verses otherwise...


I understand that many don't even believe the Bible is correct or even from God... That is ok.... what my discussions were regarding is toward the LDS beliefs that use verses of the Bible, which they believe, and presenting their context....

The problem isn't interpretation, it's that you cannot interpret based on single verses out of context.... the challenge is that I didn't interpret the same, and everyone has a different interpretation....

But, which do you believe holds the most credit?

The interpretation based on one verse solely, or the interpretation which accounts for its chapter's context, negating the ability to take that verse alone as doctrine, but backing it up with its surrounding verses.... and then comparing those to the doctine represented in the surrounding books....

That is where the LDS church cannot go.... and hasn't....

Unfortunatly, this is the point where the paths usually end.... I've gotten to this point with MANY, MANY mormon missionaries in the world, and either they were instructed not to return (which many unfortunately were by their temple leaders) or we agreed to continue searching and seeing for ourselfs which we wanted to pursue... and let it be that....

I spent two years out in the world speaking to people about faith/religion/education/community developement and had over 50 opportunities to sit down with LDS missionaries and have a great time talking and exploring each other's beliefs, so I'm not really am amature when it comes to understanding what an LDS believer believes and the difference between that and evangelical Christianity...

This topic could go on and on, into topics such as levels of heaven, legalism, eternal marriage, spirit children, the history of the devils origin, having your own planet?, and many other atypical LDS beliefs.... But, the argument still always comes back to context and not allowing one verse to define doctrine....

I challenge you to pursue that.... think about it seriously, cause that is where you will have to find your own answers and/or rationalisation to believe what you do... don't rest anything on blind faith, or "feelings"...

With that.... I'm out.... Good Discussion for the guys who kept it good.... and please realise that this isn't an argument, or me trying to get you to accept my perspective... it's a defense of the biblical text and not allowing it to be taken out of context....

Now, I have to go back to modifying my car....

P.S. - "Everybody likes to argue theology. It's a good safe subject. You don't need any facts or distracting things like that." [Mary Hawking]

Theology is by far, not SAFE.... and you must have facts, which include context, history, personal accounts, and the reality of the world around you... for good reading, and since a movie is coming out based on one of his books, read "Mere Christianity", by C.S. Lewis.... It's a good perspective of an Atheist's perspective on Christianity and how the reality of the world around us points us in the direction of Christ.

jallamas

Its to bad that you cannot accept someone else's opinion. I was married to a Moron for a few years and they have some really great values. I do not beleive in there religious views but I will not use this post to bash their religion. Remember this is America and we have the freemdom of expressing our views.


John

SirScion

jallamas

Protect your Banana!

SirScion

:D

wibblywobbly

Where did I ever say the holocaust wasn't bad? In fact I criticized the Catholic Church for their half-assed apology (50 years after the fact) for ignoring it.

Typical....pick out one thing I say, twist it around and accuse me of something even worse. I guess that's the state of public discourse in this country. The same goes for your attatcking the "American Massacre" book....it is well researched and documented, but what use is scholarship when it goes against your point. I'm not surprised....look at what happened when Jon Krakauer wrote his book. It was well documented and researched, but since it went against the LDS, the church went all out to discredit him.

You call me out for that....yet you turn around and compare Mormon oppression to the plight of the slaves! come on now... that's even more crazy than what you accused me of, no matter how you caveat it.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was robbery plain and simple. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was just saying that this is a dark chapter in the history of the Mormon Church, just like the inaction of the Catholic Church is a dark chapter.
But since you want to go there, at least the Catholic Church's crime was inaction and denial....the pope didn't actually order people to be killed like Brigham Young did. (it was still bad though, considering how much more they could have done)

I will stop now, because this is has evolved in to an awful comparison that was never meant to be...these are totally different, yet both totally disgusting events..off totally different scales....but I hope you at least see what I was really trying to say.

reread that part before you try to twist this around in to something else.

The "Christian States of America" was a joke that went over your head. All the evangelicals want to tell everyone else how to live their lives, but at least they have never tried to break away and form their own country like the Mormons tried to do, both in Missouri and Utah (where Brigham Young was raising an army)

jallamas

wibblywobbly! Good point! I understood what you said!


John

jmiller20874

Honestly though, who cares what happened over 100 years ago? Every single religion in the world has at one point had some things happen that are not too highly looked upon. The Mormon religion is young but what makes it any less viable than other religions? Just because it hasn't been around 1,500 some-odd years, doesn't make it bad. All religions evolve in one way or another.

Besides one case that can or can't be made of Mormons exhibiting violence doesn't make the religion bad. Many more Mormons were slaughtered than that one incident, even the founder of the religion was murdered in cold blood. Look at the countless examples of the Catholic religion's downfalls. Catholics have killed more in the name of their religion than any other. Doesn't the Crusades ring any bells? What about today with all the cases of child molestation?

Take Islam where hardcore extremists kill dozens in the name of God every day. Does that mean all Islamic followers are bad, no. There are a select few that tend to spoil the image of a religion. Why Mormons are the most hated still concerns me. Other than one case, whether true ot not, what makes Mormons that hated? We don't sacrifice virgins or anything. I guess it just stands to show that people still fear what they do not understand.

Chillaxin206

That's what its all about, if its real to you and you enjoy it, who can blame you for that. People believe whatever they believe for many different reasons. I don't see how someone can criticize what you believe in without even knowing why you believe in it.

obz

I revert back to my original post. If this had been a "Who on Scionlife is a Baptist?" we wouldn't be here. What's sad is that Mormons HAVE to expect a subject like this to go bad.

As far as what the bible reads, it's still up to "translation." The bible talks heavily about women being subservient to men, sacrificing animals, and circumcision, however does that mean that we should do those things? It's all up to interpretation in the end, regardless of the last verse, chapter, or book. Religions all over the world have not only based their beliefs on multiple scriptures, but on just one. One can go and "research" the teachings of men and try and figure out the meaning of a scripture, chapter, or book, however in the end is this research valid? Mormonism believes in personal revelation, which is to say that Mormonism believes that it is ultimately a person’s decision to believe what he/she will. There is no force applied, there is no seduction. A Mormon becomes a Mormon because he/she wants to be. There are Mormons that stray away from the church and its teachings, and many times they become the most extreme Mormon haters in existance. One of the most recognized Mormon haters is the son of one of their prophets. Sure he can go around and say he's "Mormon" but obviously he is not. He has completely rejected the Mormon faith and no longer partakes in its teachings.

I do not compare the Mormon plight with that of the slaves, Jews, or anyone else, however there has been some pretty bad stuff happen to them and their church. The fact that their founder died for something that he believed in (no matter how diluted you believe him to be) is extremely impressive. The fact that hundreds of them died for something they believed in is impressive as well. Would you be willing to do that? Would you deny your God to save your own life? I have friends that are Mormon and they are some of the greatest people I know and they whole heartedly believe in their faith. Can you say that about yours? If nothing else they deserve your respect, not your cynicism.

PS Keep in mind, those missionaries are 19,20,21. Of course they are not the most versed people in the bible. At least they're doing something to support what they believe in and put their life on hold for 2 years to do it. What were you doing during those 2 years of your life? I can't say I was doing something so worth while.

jallamas

[quote="obz"]I revert back to my original post. If this had been a "Who on Scionlife is a Baptist?" we wouldn't be here. What's sad is that Mormons HAVE to expect a subject like this to go bad.

As far as what the bible reads, it's still up to "translation." The bible talks heavily about women being subservient to men, sacrificing animals, and circumcision, however does that mean that we should do those things? It's all up to interpretation in the end, regardless of the last verse, chapter, or book. Religions all over the world have not only based their beliefs on multiple scriptures, but on just one. One can go and "research" the teachings of men and try and figure out the meaning of a scripture, chapter, or book, however in the end is this research valid? Mormonism believes in personal revelation, which is to say that Mormonism believes that it is ultimately a person’s decision to believe what he/she will. There is no force applied, there is no seduction. A Mormon becomes a Mormon because he/she wants to be. There are Mormons that stray away from the church and its teachings, and many times they become the most extreme Mormon haters in existance. One of the most recognized Mormon haters is the son of one of their prophets. Sure he can go around and say he's "Mormon" but obviously he is not. He has completely rejected the Mormon faith and no longer partakes in its teachings.

I do not compare the Mormon plight with that of the slaves, Jews, or anyone else, however there has been some pretty bad stuff happen to them and their church. The fact that their founder died for something that he believed in (no matter how diluted you believe him to be) is extremely impressive. The fact that hundreds of them died for something they believed in is impressive as well. Would you be willing to do that? Would you deny your God to save your own life? I have friends that are Mormon and they are some of the greatest people I know and they whole heartedly believe in their faith. Can you say that about yours? If nothing else they deserve your respect, not your cynicism.

PS Keep in mind, those missionaries are 19,20,21. Of course they are not the most versed people in the bible. At least they're doing something to support what they believe in and put their life on hold for 2 years to do it. What were you doing during those 2 years of your life? I can't say I was doing something so worth while.[/quote Very nicely said,,,,,,Thank you!



John

chucksu

Its gone into the whole Im more right then you & this is why kind of thing....

"To error is human" Cant recall who said it..
Also Im not going to do a whole word by word or any thing like that. I recall in some part of the bible, the whole talking about Adam & Eve. They made the error & ate the apple. So as it is told, we humans have natural errors built into us & or not god like creatures.

So looking onto that idea, lets look at some facts!

Who wrote the original bible? 1 guess, a HUMAN!
Who translated the original? 1 guess, a HUMAN!
Who translated the translated? 1 guess, you should get my point..
Who copied the translated, translated version? You guessed it, a HUMAN!

So what am I trying to get at, even the "bible" being done by human hand, has no way of telling 100% truth of the tails that happend a long time ago.. After all I could say one thing & some one else would write it down different, in a way he understands. I would guess that the 5th generation of the bible being translated or copied, was probably already only 75% like the orignal, maybe not even that much

*This is just my view on the whole topic about whats right & whats wrong. If you have a gut felling there is a god, then keep it to your self & let others find it there own way.

wibblywobbly

I probably would have made some sort of wise ___ comment about that too. Like how I can't wait for the rapture to come because all the pretentious jerks will be gone. Clowns like me who are mistrustful of organized religion and people telling me how to live my life do things like that. Baptists, Mormon, Muslim, Catholic.....Mormon's draw my ire because the LDS church goes out of it's way to crush dissenting voices and put pointless (to me anyways) restrictions on people's lives but all those "holier than thou" types who are "free of sin" are the same in my book. I just have issues with authority and am a punk sometimes. It's all good. I figure as long as I live a decent life, don't kill anyone, donate to charity and help a few old ladies across the street I'll be covered no matter what the afterlife brings. I mean is it that big a deal say a few curse words and drink alcohol...... Am I that bad of I guy.....if your cool, your cool and I'll buy you a beer (or a soda) and we'll chill. If your going to put on a big show of whatever religion you are and make a big deal of you values...implying the are superior and try to suggest ways I can improve my life then you can bounce on out. I guess my only Mormon experiences have been negative or something.

...look at what I started...


*runs and hides*

jrv2000

I was wondering if I could have my question answered by one of the mormons on this topic. I have driven by many mormon temples (D.C., LA, San Diego, and one in Utah) and have always thought the architecture to be magnificent.(Im an architect major) I have always wanted to stop and go inside to see what they look like, but have heard rumors that a non-mormon is not allowed on the property let alone inside the temple. Is this true? If so, why?

Thanks,

John

Poison

Only mormons can enter, same reason why a muslin wouldn't be able to enter the vatican...I assume...

jrv2000

Actually I was at the vatican last summer, and I saw Middle Easterners/Arabs? going in, although i dont know if they were muslim or not.

I could be wrong, but I believe that every other religeon allows people of other faiths to visit their places of worship.

obz

This isn't entirely true. I have actually toured a temple and have been on temple grounds mutliple times. Once a temple has been dedicated, then it cannot be entered by anyone except for LDS people that have been found worthy to do so, not just any LDS member. Many times temples are renovated or built and can be entered before they are (re)dedicated. For instance, many non-LDS people entered the newly built Long Beach temple in So Cal. It has since been dedicated and no longer can be entered by just anyone. As for temple grounds, when I lived in California I used to go up to the Oakland temple just for the view. There wasn't a better one in the area. They didn't care whether I was Mormon or not.

jrv2000

What do you mean by dedicating? Is it a specific ceremony held?

obz

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it is basically a dedication of the temple to do temple work. Before it is just a building, after it is considered a temple. I believe the prophet of the church basically says a public prayer blessing the temple to be kept safe and dedicating it to do temple work for the church.