tC4italy

If by that you mean me I had to fend for myself. So you're talking to the wrong person here.

djct_watt

I'm very afraid of the voting power of the huge mass of uneducated people. . . And that's not a quote. =) now what?

I keep my post CLEAN without swearing or cursing. Swearing in a debate is something I gave up in preschool.

I was merely giving someone respect for making educated statements. But if you were to prefer me to make statements based off what the green elf in the closet tells me, then I can do that too. We all LOVE it when laws are based off emotion and fear. Prohibition, "weapons of mass distriction in Iraq," and Salem witchhunts were huge successes!
*edited- damn T9 text entry!*

engifineer

Our country came mostly from people running away from the atrocities of those countries. And right before we get to that point, the goverment will complete disarming its citizens, just like those other countries did. The point of my example was horribly missed. It is not when it happened, it is HOW it happened.

And I may be one of the few in relation to something. But I have yet to meet someone raised around guns responsibly (taught how to use them as well) and raised with some real morals that turned out like this. I can bet that 90% of the people where I grew up owned and used guns. It was also free of most of this bs that tends to occur primarilly in areas full of political correctness and strict gun laws.

Tomas

I lied.

I said I would shut up for a bit to allow others some breathing space. Instead let me close with a rather long quote from one of my favorite authors, a quote from one of Robert Anson Heinlein's juvenile novels that I read back in 1959...

Pacifism is the doctrine of non-violence. It is the philosophy that the use of force is always wrong. It is the credo that one may not hurt or kill another human being even when that person uses physical violence against you or those you love. Pacifists may engage in "nonviolent" resistance -- that is to say, they may actively resist even though they will not use what we would normally consider force -- but they will not fight.

A pacifist would attempt to place himself between his wife and his wife's would-be rapist, giving his life to "protect" her, but he would not actually hurt or kill the rapist. The logical outcome of this scenario is a dead husband and a violated wife (as well as an unbroken chain of violated women in the future).

A group of pacifists might gather together to stand before an advancing army and throw their bodies under the treads and wheels of the invaders' war machines, but they would not actually try to kill any of the invaders. The logical outcome of this scenario is a pile of dead pacifists and a sacked city (as well as an unbroken chain of sacked cities in the future).

The fundamental flaw of pacifism is that of false moral equivalency. There is a difference between initiated and retaliatory force. If you do not make this distinction -- if you do not see the difference between attacking someone and defending against that attack -- you are, in effect, declaring both attacker and defender to be morally equal. You are saying that there is no difference between the rapist and the raped, the mugger and the mugged, the murderer and the murdered.

Tom

ilovemytC

Scotland, March 1996: Gun enthusiast Thomas Hamilton shoots 16 children and their teacher dead at their primary school in Dunblane, Scotland before killing himself.

Germany, November 1999: A 15-year-old student in Meissen, eastern Germany, stabbed his teacher to death after taking bets from classmates he would dare commit the crime.

Germany, March 2000: A 16-year-old pupil at a private boarding school in the Bavarian town of Branneburg, shot a 57-year-old teacher, who later died from injuries.

Germany, February 2002: A former pupil killed his headmaster and set off pipe bombs in the technical school he had recently been expelled from in Freising near Munich.

NEWS BRIEF: "18 Dead in German high school shooting spree", Yahoo News, April 27, 2002.

"An expelled student killed 18 people including himself when he went on a shooting rampage in a German high school, leaving a "picture of horror," police said. Nine male and five female teachers, two female students, a policeman and the 19-year-old gunman died in the massacre at the Gutenberg high school in the eastern city of Erfurt, police chief Manfred Grube said. Grube said there were bodies lying in hallways, classrooms and a toilet at the school and that the gunman had killed himself as police approached.


NEWS BRIEF: "HS student kills teacher in Bosnia", by Radul Radovanock, washingtonpost.com, April 29, 2002.

"VLASENICA, Bosnia-Herzegovina –– A 17-year-old shot and killed one teacher and wounded another Monday before taking his own life in front of 30 other students. Bosnia's first school attack came three days after a deadly shooting spree at a German school. The students ran screaming from the room after the teen-ager shot himself, leaving books and the wounded teacher in a pool of blood. Walls and benches were splattered with blood; bullets blew holes in the walls and shattered classroom windows ... Petkovic, who was described by the principal as "quiet and sensitive," then put the gun to his head and killed himself."

Other countries:

March 30, 1997: Mohammad Ahmad al-Naziri, 48, armed with an assault rifle, opened fire on hundreds of students at two school in Sanaa, Yemen. Six children and two others died. He was sentenced to death and executed by firing squad one week after the incident.

Apr. 28, 1999: A 14-year-old who had been bullied by his classmates, opened fire at W.R., Myers high school in Taber, Alberta, Canada, killing a 17-year-old student and wounding another student. The boy, who was obsessed with the Columbine shootings, pleaded guilty to murder and attempted murder and, in November 2000, was sentenced to three-years in jail.

June 8, 2001 - Mamoru Takuma forced his way into Ikeda Elementary School in Osaka, Japan, stabbed to death eight students and injured 13 others. Takuma, who had a long history of mental illness, pleaded guilty to the crimes.

Mar 26, 2001 - An arson fire at the Kyanguli Secondary school in Kenya killed 67 students. Two students were charged with murder.

ilovemytC

I've had this discussion before about Europe or other countries than the U.S. having lower crime rates. My answer is because there isn't a huge epidemic of gangs in Europe and the UK as there are here.

If you took only half the gangs in the city of Los Angeles, and relocated them to Europe, I guarantee the crime rate and gun shootings would rise drastically.

I looked for the crime statistics from Interpol, but interestingly they do not offer those to the public ANYMORE. However, the last statistics showed European countries' crime rates were on the rise and higher than the U.S.:

Here are Interpol 2001 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):

4161 - US
7736 - Germany
6941 - France
9927 - England and Wales
Thus the US has a substantially lower crime rate than the major European countries!

Here are the Interpol 1995 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):

5278 - US
8179 - Germany
6316 - France
7206 - England & Wales

djct_watt

Tc4Italy doesn't listen to quotes, remember? So in her eyes those events never happened and are not relavant.

Ps, there have been MANY instances in Asia. I know that Thailand has had its fair share.

ilovemytC

^As long as we know they happened.

I know, I found the most relevant ones in the European region.

Tomas

That's not fair. It's not that she doesn't listen, she just thinks it's lazy to
use what others have said to support one's statements and viewpoints,
even if they are the folks who wrote the US Constitution...

What's that again? I think I missed something.

There is no continent that does not have unbalanced people killing people -
one of the most horrific was in Australia where a nut shot up a pre-school.

Since that time, the Aussies have confiscated all sorts of firearms, and
have instituted massive penalties for having them - and increased its
violent crimes rate.

Randomly chosen examples from Australia...

In 1987, Australia experienced at least 32 homicides in a total of at least
six multiple-killing incidents—including the Hoddle Street and Queen Street
(Melbourne, Victoria) "massacres."

In August, 1990 five people were shot to death with a shotgun in Surrey
Hills, Sydney, NSW. A year later, on August 17, 1991, a 20-year-old
young man shot and killed six people, stabbed to death another, then
killed himself with his semiauto rifle in a shopping plaza in the Sydney,
NSW suburb of Strathfield.

The next year, on October 27, 1992 a man shot to death six people in
three towns north of Sydney on the central coast of (again) NSW. On
August 26, 1993, three people were shot dead by a man in another suburb
of Sydney, NSW.

In January, 1996 seven people were shot dead in a Brisbane, Queensland
suburb. Then, on 28 April 1996, 32 people were shot to death, 19 were
seriously injured, and three others were otherwise killed near Port Arthur,
Tasmania.

I seem to recall reading that the highest crime rate of any civilized country
in the world is actually England - which of course has incredibly strict gun
control. (Until recently, most police there didn't even carry guns.)

Honestly, though, discussions about "gun control" rarely change anyone's
opinions. Most folks on both sides enter with a "don't confuse me with the
facts, my mind's made up" viewpoint.

Probably time to let this topic fade away.

Tom

tC4italy

congratulations single minded people that make discussions a bore and not worth participating in

I'm out hope you all use yr guns one day forze ____r voi steiss ;)

tC4italy

Hmmm yeah get yr crap straight
I don't vote here
So yeah since I'm pretty sure YOU do then "I'm very afraid of the voting power of the huge mass of uneducated people. ."

matt_a

I own several guns (rifles, shotguns & handguns). I don't think anyone has to worry about mine. My guns are very lazy and unmotivated. They generally just lay around in the gun cabinet waiting for me to take them out and do something. I really can't see them doing something like that on their own.

tC4italy

[quote="djct_watt"]Lol how bout NOT USING countries and example where there is/was war raging

And 16 dead is no where close 30s; but then once again if you wanna use yr guns do so as long as yr kind of people is no where near me.

scionofPCFL

If guns were illegal, he just would have just had illegal guns and did the same thing, with the same result. Laws don't stop criminals. Do speeding laws stop speeders? Do drug laws stop users and sellers? Did the law against murder stop him?

hotbox05

there are wars raging in present day germany? among school children in scotland?

hmm

scionofPCFL

So logistically speaking how exactly would you go about this? What would you be willing spend in terms of lives to make this happen? Because I personally don't see how this happens without a civil war.

If you have any doubts as to what I claim it would take to do this, just look up David Garesh and Waco. That was just one place with about 40-50 people, and they held off a small army for weeks.


Seriously, I agree with you. It would be great to push a button and every gun would just instantly disentigrate, and anyone who knows how to make them (100's of thousands of people) would just instantly forget how to do it. But that's a fantasy world, and unfortunately, I'm bound by the laws of reality.

matt_a

Exactly. Only law-abiding citizens are going to obey the laws. It's not the tools they use, it's the people. If someone is intent on doing harm, they will find a way.

hotbox05

what the heck are you talking about? it isn't 1992 anymore.....

BoiseAuctioneer

I SWEAR you have selective reading. Have you not read the HUNDREDS of posts prior that show you over and over that even if guns were made illegal and 10 times harder to get he would still have came in with a gun! It might not have been yesterday but maybe next week. PATHETIC


Your sure of this? Even though a guy has a knife against your throaght your going to fight against them? Because knives are not nearly as killable or scary? They only cause little ****** that a bandaid will fix. IGNORANT PATHETIC


You would havea proplem with a DOZEN law abiding citezens coming to your community? UNEDUCATED IGNORANT PATHETIC


Coming from the person that sits at home ALL day and spends HOURS on the internet not learning but handing out BS posts about your pathetic uneducated ignorant opinions? GET A JOB...Oh wait I forgot you cant/couldnt. It is people like you that seriously need to open your eyes? Yes I know its not easy the light is bright butt listen and look around for a bit and you will finally realize how un realistic your claims are. Lets take all the guns away from the law abiding citezens that use guns legally so that instead of 1 guy killing 30+ people he can kill close to a hundred anywhere! I was in the Tacoma mall when a guy went balistic shooting people randomly, I was in Journeys with my Girlfriend at the time and we jumped behind the counter with another couple and the guy next to me was carrying a concealed weapon and you have NO idea how realived I was that I was not just going to sit here and either wait for him to become tired of killing or for him to approach me and kill all of us! This is not your day sunshine so once again say "I cant argue with a dozen guys who are all singleminded" and leave without saying anything that you see necessary before you make a fool of yourself once again!

citizen01

I realize I may be forfeiting my life to go up against a super mod but Tom... I would have to agree with tc4italy on the quotes thing. Let's ignore the fact that peoples opinions are NOT fact or conclusive in any way as was previously stated but let me also add that the constitution was written in a time when your government couldn't simply spray your area with nerve gas. Jefferson and company were thinking in terms of guns being the top of the line in killing which they simply are not anymore. Try to remember that those are all tehe same people that owned slaves but that was also an antiquated practice, I hope you can at least agree on that.

tc4italy come live with me on an island with no guns and we'll let these guys have an island where everyone has guns and we will see which island has more gunshot victims.
nuff said.