And you are never going to find concrete, irrefutable proof. That's why it is called FAITH. If it were based on testable and confirmable facts, it wouldn't be called faith at all. . . it would be called truth.

I'm not saying that religion isn't true, it's just that it's has less to do with true and false and more to do with faith. Ask any devoutly religious person, and they will tell you the "proof" that they gives them the truth they need to believe.

On the matter of religion x vs y. . . I live my life by my morals and standards, which most religions uphold as virtues. However, you have to remember that ALL religions are spread through the word of man. Man, by nature and by scripture, is NOT perfect. If you find yourself to be a person of faith, you have to remember that NO MAN truly understands the word of God, not I, not your pastor, not your rabbi, no sheik, no monk. . . not even yourself. If there is a God, and if He does speak to man, man would not be able to truly comprehend His word. Inevitable, man will screw it up. Just think of organized religion as the Cingular phone call to God. It'll get most of the message through, but sooner or later, the call will be dropped. If there is a God, our flaws are in our intended design. He would have given you flaws (to test you or some other unfathomable reason) but he would also give you the tools necessary to draw your own conclusions.

Most any sane person knows right from wrong. Lies are considered Sin. . . and that includes the lies you make to yourself to justify your wrong doing. . . and this applies with or without religion.

Personally, I believe that ALL religions speak of the same God or entity, they just have different interpretations. McDonald's can't even get my 5 second lunch order right. . . odds are that centuries of told stories and translated scriptures will skew the religions messages and rules and such until the develop major differences. I don't know if that makes any sense.

I don't know if God exists, and as of right now, I'm trying to avoid Hell on Earth. I know that good deeds and good morals are the key to entering any heaven, should one exist. I don't have the power (at the moment) to decipher true religions from ones that could be false. But I do know that a heaven created by a God who turns away good people just because they ate meat on Friday is a heaven I'm not sure I want a part of. But I'm still figuring things out for myself.

 

Funny topic. But I will be serious. I just want to share my personal thoughts.

I consider myself an agnostic freethinker. Although I dislike religion, and although I think the world would be a better place without religion, I am still very spiritual.

Myself and my family have experienced many many things that could be related to what you may call angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, out of body experiences, psychic abilities, etc.

I believe in alot of these things. But I don't believe in god. People, we live in 2007. We are more technologically advanced. Back in the day, sure, god was there to answer everyones questions, but now? Humans can do the impossible.

I went to a private catholic high school. I HAD to take religion classes. And while I was ignorant at first, I realized that alot of people have different beliefs all of the world. I think the world one is Christianity (sorry, they just ____ me off all the time, yes i have Christian friends but they're not hardcore).

And I will repeat what others have said. Its called faith for a reason.

I have faith that I will have a successful career and will be wealthy... But theres a different. I will be WORKING towards it. You can't work on your faith but just keep...believing? And worshipping? Its wasted energy.

I meditate sometimes. I am a musician and I play music. Why I mention that? Because its much more spiritual and productive than going to church and worshipping something you don't know is there.

You may FEEL it, you may HAVE experiences, but there is no way of knowing. Honestly, I don't think its logical.

This debate is long and tough. I think its interesting to hear and read others' perspectives. and i'm always open. but I will always still to MY beliefs and to MY faith, which is purely adapting to our ever changing world and culture and doing what is most logical for my own survival...

 

glad to see that this has not become a bloodbath of rage! but honestly, religion is just a scape goat for those unable or unwilling to think out a more logical and realistic answer to a situation. life sux, so god hates me and i need to pray. or maybe its actually life sux 'cause i drink like im in a frat house and i hate my wife that i married in vegas. and if hell and heven is real, ill see you all in hell. do you realize how goddam picky the bible is! if you freakin cough the wrong way your damned for life! i swear, i have a drink here and there, i steal, i lie, i cheat, i beat off, i break the law, i hit, i go on rants, im incompassionate at times, i argue with my parents, i fight with my naighbors, im mean and cruel sometimes, and im human. if god cannot accept me for what i am and who i am then he is unrealistic and, truthfully, naive. so save me a seat in hell next to some pretty flames, id do the same for you!


oh and kxckid88, what instrament(sp) do u play?

 

I find all organized religions to be just a way for weak minded people to cope with their problems. rather then helping themselves, they put the blame/credit onto some ghost in the sky.

Bibles (Quran, Torah...whatever) are not science. They will never be science and they are not meant to be taken literally. They are just stories meant to keep the sheeple in line and not to question the status quo.

If jesus walked the earth today, Im sure a lot of people would judge him by the way he looks to be a terrorist.

 

guys for any claim about anything that someone makes:

you can only prove something is.
you can not prove something isn't.

that's not how reality works.
I know you religious people don't study or even understand science, but that's how proving things work. Who's heard of the "scientific method"? Who else took a science class in junior high?

If I tell you there is a magical fairy land in my closet that only I can see, I can only prove it exists or I can't.

Believing in something you can't even prove to yourself, is rediculous.

 

It's REALLY surprising to see how people's views have changed in this last century.

When I was in high school. I was the only "atheist" kid. I was the guy that listened to metal and hardcore and everyone though was I was weird because I was atheist, I did go to a catholic school like I mentioned. I was into that whole I hate god thing because of this depression stage I was going though.

But eventually, you just mature, and start to understand the difference between whats logical and whats not. And I am ALSO surprised how many strong catholics and Christians their are today! My buddy just "converted" because he was my atheist buddy in highschool, and when he told me I was thinking wooooow. Sounds like he did it for his girlfriend so he could go with her to church every sunday...

 

If there is a God, and it is the very beginning, there is nothing else... then what is God to do? There is no time, space, anything, but him. He is endless, all powerful, holy, perfect... the only being. God is beyond us, beyond our frame of thought. He is a concept we will never be able to grasp entirely. So what is this God to do? He wants glory. He wants people to learn about who he is. He wants them to worship Him, because he alone is worthy of being worshipped.

IF there is a God, this is how I imagine the time that he decided to make creation. Whatever his means of creating, whether through evolution, or creating the world already "aged", or whether his "6 days and 1 day of rest" actually equal one of our weeks (it could be a second = 1,000,000 hours to God), I don' know. But, I think that all creation, and even logic and science, point to Gods existence. I think it is a much more logical explaination for everything than for instance, the big bang theory. How does the Big Bang Theory have any validity at all? Where did these particles come from that started the whole thing? The only way, in my mind, that this could be possible, is if some being created these particles and set things in motion.

Anyhow, no matter what, agnostic, atheistic, Christian, Bhudist, scientologist... doesn't matter. No matter what, EVERYONE has belief/faith. You can have faith that there is no god, or faith in a 10 gods. Everyone looks at the world, with a set of beliefs. It is called a worldview... or to picture it, the set of glasses that you percieve the world with. I am not writing any of this to try to convince anyone that Christianity is the "right" religion. It is however, what seems to make the most logical sense to me. And therefore, the place where I put my beliefs.

There reason why? I look at the world, and see what I call "intelligent design". Those who claim science as their religion, would simply call it "chance". When I see how many millions of things have to be exactly perfect for our existence to even be possible, I can only conclude that there must be a Creator. When I witness miracles happen, I call them miracles, instead of "extremely coincidental occurances". No, you cannot prove the existence of God, but I do think that He wants us to know that he exists, rather than a God called "chance". Ever wonder, what is the point of life, if there is no creator? Why would there be morals? What is the point? Does not everyone not have a sense of right and wrong? Every culture says that lying or murdering is not right. As a matter of fact, what makes people different from animals? Why do we have logic (as opposed to conditioned response, instinct, or some small amount of intelligent communication.)? Could it be that man was created "in the image of God"? So that we would have a tiny bit of understanding about the universe?

Please note, I am not trying to defend the Bible, or even Christianity. Nor the existence of Heaven or Hell. I just want people to think "logically" about a few things that just happen to be mentioned in the first chapter of the Bible. How can we know what good is, if there is no bad? If there is a creator-god, how can anything that is not absolutely pure and holy, even exist in the presence of this creator-god? Jsut some things to think about...

 

The point of life is that your parents had unprotected sex and you were born. Same as the parents before them, same......

Some people kill others and go to jail. Some people create atomic weapons. Life is what you make of it. There is no point other than choice.

No, not everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Every culture does NOT say merdering is wrong.

We are differnet from animals mainly because of our ability to speak and having a more evolved brain.

We DO have instinct and conditioned response. Fight or flight anyone? Again, it is our brain that sets us apart from other animals.

Could it be that god was "created" (by man) in the image of man to make it easier for the sheep to believe in god?

 

why would he want to be worshipped? why would he want any of those things? Because you think he is like a greedy, selfish human?
That kind of reasoning shows that man created god in his own image, not the other way around.

Look, that "day as a thousand years" arguement is b.s. Having pigeons and canaries created a day, a year or a billion years before all land dinosaurs is wrong. (Yes, it says they were created first).
Where do logic and science point to god's existence. I want to know. Logic is not, "nobody can prove beyond all doubt the universe came from the big bang, so it must be god." Just because we do not have all the answers now, does not mean we have to come up with something right this second.
again, if god created the universe, what created god? to argue "he's always been" you could argue "the universe has always been". You make god into the variable that is all things unknown.
Logic is not "God is magic, and magic can do anything", which seems to be your argument.
Theroies have proof. Theroies have evidence. We can see the universe still expanding out from a center, and the universe is donut shaped. we know this. It can be observed.


I do not have faith there is no god. I only believe in things that are real. Things both me and you can agree upon. The sky is looks blue, grass is green, and when we die, our body withers away. Through the nitrogen process, we are absorbed back into the ground. Now, what i don't do is add mystical elements to that, I don't make up things unseen, claiming a soul rises from a dead body as religious people do. I don't add fantastic ideas about being watched by a god, or that jesus had healing powers.

Perfect? example: Modern whales have vestigial legs and pelvic girdles. Why? obviously they serve no function anymore, but it would apparent to logical people if you saw a skeleton that these whales ancestors used to walk/crawl on land.

What real miracles have you seen you lucky guy?

there is no "point" to life. it just is. I know that doesn't make your life as important as you had hoped, but it's the truth. We have morals because we have a sense of right and wrong. We as humans know working together makes for more production than working alone. We act nice to people because we want to be liked.

logically, having all types of flying animals that exist and have ever existed live together at the same time, would never work. Having pigeons created before worms and cochroaches and all land dinosaurs is retarded, and you probably can admit that, right? that is what the bible says is true.

 

Yeah... my bad. Discussing the different sounds mufflers make on a 4cyl car is sooooo much more important than a philosophical discussion on the mysteries of the universe.

 

pretty much hit the nail on the head dave. glad someone said something.

 

Yeah I have to agree with most of what dave said so far. One thing I don't though is the donut universe shape. As far as I knew we didn't know for sure the exact shape of the universe yet. It has been a while since I've researched astrophysics though.

Personally I'm pagan, but I have a very different concept of the gods. I don't see them as great invisible people in the sky or what have you. I see them as personifications (arbitrary assignments of personality by humans to an object or abstract idea) of natural energy patterns (not the sci-fi BS floating energy being crap). Like poseidon (or any sea god) is the pattern of interactions between the ocean waves and currents and the ecosystem's flow of nutrients and what have you. The scientific basis, not the faith basis. They are catalogable and definitive. I see it more as a reverence for nature than worship of some "supreme being." I believe very much in the concept of "the magic of yesterday is the science of tomorrow." Eventually the unknowns will be understood and the mysticism behind faith will slowly decay to science. (hopefully)

As for comparing science and religion, it's apples and oranges. The defining bounds of science do not line up to the infinite elasticity of faith. And yes, evolutionarily we did survive. Our ancestors had smaller brains and less refined intelligence. They did however have better sight, smell, and hearing as well as vastly more hair than us. Over time as we used more and more of our minds to make tools, shelters, and social structures and organized groups we needed those senses less. They were not needed. Our greatest ability was our ability to create technology to launch ourselves out of the necessity for those senses. The reason we walk on two legs isn't stability. Have you ever tried to use a tool while walking on all fours? You can't. It was evolutionarily beneficial for us to have our hands at the ready to manipulate whatever tool we had created for defense, shelter, foraging, or any other multitude of things.

 

So if you are just here to live and then die and go back into the ground why don’t you just end it? If I lived day to day with out faith that this was for some higher good, that their was something more for why I was sick growing up and went through so much as a kid then I would have just said well if I am just ground back into the ground then why not do it before my "evolving body" was ready to give up and have all its organ's start to shut down. I will never expect anyone to feel and believe what I do.
This is not no sway anyone on here, because no matter what you see and hear you will find away to disprove it by your so called reason and logic. People out their in the world chose to believe what they believe because it keeps them going, it helps them move from day to day. So how can you walk around trying do disprove the things they hold onto so dearly right in front of them by saying it doesn’t make sense to you so how can you possibly believe it.
Science has done a lot of many incredible things but they also have theories and beliefs that are very broad guesses and they go buy words like we don’t have the technology or ability to prove this now, but some day we will, and when that day comes you will all be so impressed. To me this sounds a lot like some Islamic or Christian beliefs to me so just as you say the day you prove there is no God is the day I will start worshiping you for the many amazing things that you have done to draw upon this proof.
To end I would like all of you to know this is all I will say in this topic and will keep reading along just as I have been doing but I couldnt sit by and let the majority of you bask in your amazing thoughts on why you are all right.

 

Um, yeah cuz that's how science works. Scientists speculate first, then experiment, then prove. Faith merely states and that's the end all explanation. Humans don't just know. We learn. Some crazy telling us that this is the way it is cuz a voice in his head said so doesn't make it true. Proof makes it true. I have yet to see someone prove something religious. If they could, guess what it would be called? Dun duh nuhhhhh: Science! Religion is just people's way of putting a quick fix on the unknown so they can either A.) feel better in their ignorance, or B.) control the masses to their liking. Science either A.) ignores it til a later date, or B.) researches it to try find the true reality behind it.

 

I'm not even 100% religious. . . but you, my friend, have FAR too much FAITH in science. There is good science and bad science. . . and unfortunately much of the "science" out there is BAD science.

Much of science is based on correlation studies, and if you study any kind of logic or philosophy, correlation does not imply causation. That's why theories and rules are broken ALL the time. There is a LOT of guesswork in science and it really shows.

Just take a good look at the global warming debacle and you'll see what I mean. If you really READ some of the environmental studies, you'll see what I mean. . . and I'm not talking about what some hollywood hippie says from his stretch limo.

For some reason, global warming (and the fact that it is happening), and the fact that humans are on the planet. . . well that correlation implies that humans are causing it.

The last sound theory I heard was that the Ice Age was caused by Dinosaur farts. They caused global cooling. Everyone knows that the Earth never changes temperature.

But back to the topic, the earth being flat was science, not being able to exceed the sound barrier was science, not being able to split the atom was science, ritalin was science, labodomies (spelling?) were science (that's when they remove part of your brain if they thought you were crazy). . .
. . . all that science is now known to be WRONG. What other "science" is going to be wrong in the future? Who knows! Our science is actually quite feeble when you consider the vast amount of unknown and unexplainable that is out there.

Guess what? The Big Bang Theory cannot be proven! It's only a GUESS. We can find some evidence to support it, but we can't prove it.

 

Are you kidding me? There is a lot of travelling that I still have to do and people I want to meet. I am having fun in my life and will continue to do so. That is the true purpose of life...discovery.


Millions call themselves belivers, but very, very few actually are. I am not questioning your faith, but I do question a majority of people who claim to have faith.

If people believed in god, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. A belief in god would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs—an earthly and practical utility—but they do not believe in the underlying reality.

They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion. They tell other people that they believe and they do believer-like things, like praying and reading holy books. But they dont do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do.

If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say god exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.

 

Read almost half yesterday and last night (as you could probably tell). I had never heard of it but it is GREAT for stimulating the mind! Cant wait to finish.

 

Why don't we just end it? That is the opposite of what being Atheist is all about. Atheists recognize that we have one shot to live life to the fullest. We don't say "f it" were going to live for eternity anyways. All we have is this one chance and I know I am going to make the most of it. Is it scary as hell? Yes, I won't lie. But is that a reason to make up a wonderful place where we go to live forever? No. Remember when your first pet died and your parents told you that he went to live on a farm and run free? Your choosing to believe that the same thing will happen to you because it is easier than accepting the truth. Ever been knocked out cold? That's it. Neurons stop firing and there is just nothing.

 

And where is your evidence for this? Yes there is SOME bad science out there (ie. the korean scientist that faked his stem cell research results). Not all or the majority of science is bad science. It is a very small amount overall.

I am fully aware of correlation =/= causation and it happens to be one of the reasons for the scientific method. This is an argument against faith, not for it. Theories and rules are broken as our knowledge increases. The same cannot be said for faith or religions. (ie. the bible being 100% factual... )

Fully aware of this too. I used to buy into the global warming argument, but after I watched gore's little "documentary" I can see he has no real concept of the planetary climate and chemistry. That whole "movie" was based on correlation. I found myself yelling at the screen frequently while watching it.

Dinosaur farts? I think the more sound concept would be the decay of the dinosaurs and the release of methane into the atmosphere en masse. I don't feel that the Ice Age came about that simply. There are way more factors to weigh in. Oh and no everyone doesn't know the earth never changes temperature. Science dictates quite the opposite (not to mention it's hard to not notice differing temps on earth when you live in a temperate zone... ) Check the data, the earth changes temperature over time. It goes through cycles.

Um, no. Earth being flat was clergy, not scientists. Guess what happened when scientists proved it wrong with science? They get arrested and sometimes murdered by the church. (Copernicus, Galileo, etc) Try reading your history book before spewing blantant lies.
Lobotomies were done at the beginning of neural science. Basically the black ages of psychology/neurology. It was a wholly new realm and they were basically groping around in the dark. The field is still in its early stages of understanding, but we've come a long way. We've come a long way in all fields of science. Look at the last 100 years. We've gone from ground dwellers to jet engine aircraft, spacefaring shuttles, massive computer technology surges, and huge breakthroughs in medical healing. Show me what religion has done comparatively in the last 1000 years?

Exactly. There is evidence. CONCRETE evidence. It is not a known fact, it is a known idea. The one that most scientists believe. We can't be certain, and I doubt we ever can prove it 100%. But this is where science again differentiates from religion. Religion states that God made the universe but has absolutely no evidence other than the ramblings of "prophets." Science has that evidence, no matter how small. Something > nothing.

 

Well, although I tried to keep this debate strictly as atheism vs theism, the Bible has been brought up several times. So...

It was actually the Egyptians, (the scientists of their day), that believed the earth was supported by five giant pillars. But the Bible said God "suspends the earth over nothing" :Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing. Science did not know this until Sir Isaac Newton in 1687 A.D. The famous astronomer, Ptolemy, declared dogmatically that the number of stars to be exactly 1056! But the Bibles states that the stars are innumerable (Genesis 15:5) written nearly 4000 years ago!

Recent discoveries by scientists with newer and better instruments, through mitochondrion DNA analysis, show that all races have a common ancestor, a woman who lived thousands of years ago, leaving resilient genes carried by all of mankind. In the scientific community - as in the Bible - they call her "Eve."

In 1861, the French Academy of Science listed 51 "incontrovertible facts" which supposedly proved the Bible to be wrong. But today, in light of new knowledge, no scientist would believe more than a few, if any, of those 51 statements. There are now tens of thousands of obsolete books on science which reputable scientists will no longer use.

Science is constantly changing, and each change usually brings it closer to the Bible. The fact that the Bible makes statements that were out of step with the thinking of the day - even though later proved correct - reveals more evidence that the writers were given superior knowledge of the world. The science books have changed, but the Bible (in it's original context)is more credible than ever. The Bible is never wrong...

Some Bible examples are:
The earth is round (Isaiah 40:22) written 220 years before Columbus. 2 things to point out here...the common belief in Biblical times was that the earth was flat, but that does not mean that the Bible says that the earth is flat. It says otherwise, which is where Christopher Columbus first got his idea that he could sail around the world. People thought he was crazy...

Truth is, there would not be any science, medicine, or technology if there were not unchanging physical laws. "Science" means the systematized study of physical laws. When science leaves observation of laws to speculate, it ceases to be science and becomes philosophy! The reason we are able to do more today in the fields of medicine and technology is because we are learning more about the laws that are not "evolving" but rather are unchanging! There are literally millions of physical laws that govern every aspect of creation. Whether it is an atom, molecule, or the farthest star away, laws govern their existence. The more we understand God's physical laws the more we can use them for the betterment of humanity. The fields of medicine and technology have just observed God's laws and have tried to harness them for the betterment of society.

One more thing to point out... The Bible says that because man has sinned, man is "dead to God". If you are talking in a mortuary, everyone hears you talking except those who are dead. Just because the dead person does not know that anyone is in the room, does not mean that nobody is in the room, but simply that the person is dead. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that, it is evident, that atheists prove that they are dead to God. No debate like this will change anyone's beliefs. Not unless God would want them to. What is interesting to me, is why would an atheist try to disprove something they can't? Why so much effort trying to get people to believe in nothing other than science or chance? Even if theism, was only something to give someone hope after a certain death...why try to take that away? When on the other hand, it does make sense to try to give hope to another by sharing "good news". Did you know suicides and anti-depression drugs have both DOUBLED in the 18-25 yr old bracket just in the last 12 years? What's the next decade going to be like without hope?