seattledave

where'd you read "NOT at an official school function"

the seattle time's article says "school-sanctioned event "

matt_a

But kids ARE being told they can't display that. And guess what...the good 'ol ACLU won't defend them for violation of free speech. As a matter of fact, they will represent those who file the complaint under "Separation of Church and State". Why the double standard?
I really don't want this to turn into a religious debate, but why would a shirt that says, "Jesus Loves You" offend you? If you don't believe in him then why would it bother you. I wouldn't be offended by a shirt that said, "Buddha Loves You" even though I don't believe in him.

Tomas

The "Field Trip" was "school sponsored" but not mandatory, and took place elsewhere. That part of it is "gray."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/wa...=1&oref=slogin

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/offbe..._hits_4_j.html

Saying something is school sanctioned or school sponsored merely means that the school 'approved" of the students doing it in most cases.

People "in charge" tend to get the feeling that they are "in charge" of everything, even when they are not. There are limits.

Tom

jwaggz82

iTrader: (1)

Im not really sure what this means to begin with. Was it a picture of jesus hitting a bong? If so im guessing he is promoting a product made by jesus himself? Correct me if im wrong

Tomas

That would be another fine banner to unfurl - totally nosensical statement.

"Buddah" was a historical figure (Siddhartha Gautama), a person who eventually became a philosopher, not a religious figure, and Buddhism is not a religion. :D

(A bit off topic, though...)



Tom

matt_a

I think you get my point. I could have named the deity of any religion.

jwaggz82

iTrader: (1)

matt_a

I feel differently about it. I think parents going into the schools and jumping all over the teachers and principle for how their "dear little angel" was punished and their rights were violated is a big part of what’s wrong with our schools today. Teachers have almost no authority anymore and as a result, kids have no respect for them.
My son is in 8th grade so he'll be starting high school next year. I have NO PROBLEM with a teacher or principle searching his locker any time they want. I also don't feel that he has a right to exercise his "freedom of speech" in school if it's disruptive or disrespectful.

Jenna

I knew what it said, just not specifically how I it was worded that supported the fact that there was school involvement of some sort at the event.. I could of been more clear about that. But thanks for calling me out on it ;).

I don't think that just because they weren't required to attend the school sanctioned event, that the school can not discipline students. I feel the school has a right to NOT have that sign be televised as it reflects poorly on their school to have a bunch of their students holding it. I also think, whether or not a teacher is correct in telling a student to do something (within reason... not like to get naked, you know what I mean), and the student flat out refuses, that there should be punishment involved.

seattledave

I'm offended because, I don't believe "that" jesus even existed and it's sad that our world has come to being run by people believing in made up nonsense. It's offensive that people side with a religion that treats women as 2nd rate citizens, condems homosexuals to hell, and murders millions of people because they don't "love jesus".

The simple "Jesus loves you" is part of the christian mindset to convert people through seemingly subtle and innocent ways.

Like having 3 year olds taught about jesus dying on the cross for their sins, being told he is real/the truth, it is very much brainwashing a very impressionable mind(i know i can make up anything i want, tell my kid it's true, and he'll believe it)
Being told that after you accept jesus, denying him, or thinking for a second that him or the bible isn't true is a sin. That kind of locks you into it, with no way out besides flat out rejection of it. Christians say you can question it, without denying it, so like you're forever biased "knowing" the truth.

Brainwashing, pure and simple. Followers of Heaven's Gate didn't think they were brainwashed into thinking aliens are coming to pick them up with an asteroid, and neither do christians. It disgusts me that normal people have been trained this way by their parents, and preachers. and it's offensive to me, this is legal and endorsed.

Do you want me to go on?

seattledave

I was paddled, alot, in 8th grade. What if you don't believe in using physical violence like hitting kids to discipline them?

seattledave

Wow, so you believe a school can/should be able to discipline students not at school if it reflects a poor image of the school? The video of the kid holding this banner, was not followed by "and there are the kids from joeblow high school".

What if, a news report came on, and a 16 year old kid was there and flipped off a camera. and in that same report the newsreporter said "btw, there's only high school for 100miles around". Should a school be able to discipline them?

matt_a

As I said, I don't want a religious debate so I'm not going to comment on ny of that.

matt_a

So was I. Not alot, but I got paddled. As for my son...if he deserved it according to school rules, I'd have no problem with it. I honestly believe that if they would bring back paddling in schools it would help with the total lack of respect many kids have today.

Jenna

I picture the school band and whatever else was there for the event, in one part of the event. I picture the pupils in the same area. I image people viewing that area and seeing them as a group. If that is not correct, I'm sorry.

If they are together as a group, I can see and understand a teacher or principal seeing this sign and telling the children to put it down. I can also see a child being in trouble for disobeying an order by a teacher or principal. I can also see the interest of a school district and such to want their school to be shown in a positive way.

And, even if the television didn't say "there's the students from Joeblow HS", I imagine everyone in that community could recognized them as such when they watched it on television.

Jenna

Can't do that. I know I and many other parents would outright yank their children from school if corporal punishment was allowed. I don't let anyone lay a hand on my child and would never lay my hand upon someone else's.

Seriously, they can punish my child to the ends of the earth, so long as they don't hurt them physically.

seattledave

But some people don't advocate physical violence/discipline. I don't.
Plus, even if a parent does spank, do they spank because their child didn't do their homework? didn't show up for class one day? Different people have a different threshold on spanking, some use it as a last resort, some as the first.

and i'm not sure about bringing back paddling in today's age. I was just listening to a report about the philadelphia school district and how teachers are being punched, choked, and hospitialized, and for what? Stupid school stuff. Nowadays I could see a teacher getting punched who was paddling a student as the child has a legitimate excuse to hit, as they've been hit.

Tomas

I understand what you are saying, Jenna, but possibly a part of the problem is what folks mean by 'school sanctioned.' My understanding is that this was more something where the "sanctioning" was not much more than the school saying "you can go watch the Olympic flame go through town if you want."

As to "I feel the school has a right to NOT have that sign be televised as it reflects poorly on their school to have a bunch of their students holding it."

Since this was off school grounds, etc., what "right" does the school have to say ANYTHING even it it is students? There was no identification that these were students of that school until the principal over-reacted and tore down the sign in a bit of a tantrum...

Let's take a hypothetical, let's say this was a fine Sunday morning and there was some newsworthy thing being covered by TV and a bunch of students of that school hold up the banner off school grounds and it is broadcast. Would a school official have any "right" to disrupt the student's clear right to speak out?

OK, then, what's different here. What if the school said "OK, you don't have to attend classes on Sunday, so you can go watch that news event unfold if you want to." That makes it "school sanctioned" - does that give the principal the right to take down the banner just because at another time and place those are students of her school?

How 'bout if the sign said something else the principal didn't agree with? Maybe "Drink Wine for Jesus!" If the principal was a tee-totaler or hyper religious (or strongly atheist), would she have some sort of inherent right, as an adult that has some responsibility for those kids when they are at school, to disrupt something that is perfectly legal to do and wasn't taking place at school?

Remember, what those students did was absolutely legal, broke no laws, and injured no one in any way, while what the principal did interfered with the student's constitutional right to speech, damaged the student's personal property, and (with the suspension of a student for ten days) disrupted the student's legally guaranteed right to a public education.

I side with the several courts who have already heard this case, both originally and on appeal. Hopefully the SCOTUS will also agree that student speech that hurts no one (including the school) can not be forbidden or used as a basis to punish the students just because someone allegedly in power doesn't like it.

Tom

Jenna

Tomas, you're painting a bit of a different picture about the event than what I had in mind, indeed. I suppose the principal wouldn't have say over what that child was doing then.

I would say "unless" after that last sentence but am unsure if what I'm going to say next is legal or not. It sure isn't very on topic either so feel free to skip...

I grew up in a private Christian school and if I were to smoke, hold up a "bong hits 4 Jesus" sign or any other thing that went against their beliefs or rules, even while not at school or school event, I would of been punished. If I was witnessed flipping off someone while at the mall, on a weekend, I would get detention.

I believe the reason the school got away with it is because I had to sign a covenant at the begining of the year that says I won't do such things.

backseatchris

tom has a point. The school let the kids out early to go watch this event. BUT, the kids could have gone home or done whatever they had wanted instead. Legally, it was not a school sponsored event. School was dismissed.

Now, i dont know whether this was a public or private school. At my private highschool, we all signed contracts before becoming students. Part of that contract said that anything we do in our free time, whether it be on a saturday or even over the summer, the school still had the right to punish, or even take things as far as expulsion for what we did. Long story short, they didnt want anything bad ever connected with the school. They suspended a student for his myspace page (photos of illegal substances), even though he never acessed the site from school.