SecretAgentMonkey

You're right, I won't be carrying around a baby. But as BigMURR said, it's the consequence of your actions. If I jump off my roof and break my leg why should I have to put up with a broken leg? I don't want it.

Well, it's because:
1) I willingly jumped off my roof
2) The consequences of jumping off roofs is potential broken bones and death

Sex has consequences. But no, a girl who get's pregnant shouldn't have to live with the consequences of those actions...that's not her choice.

Freedom of choice should start with your actions. If I exercise my right to not jump off my roof, then I won't break my leg. If a girl exercises her right to not have sex, she won't get pregnant.

citizen01

Grrrr... this topic just sucks you in.

Here is my personal standpoint differing from the posts where i was simply arguing against flawed logic.

I believe that taking the life of another person who could otherwise live is wrong. That includes capitol punishment and abortion.
I suppose it depends on how you define murder to say that abortion is murder. If you define it as taking away someone's right to live against there will abortion is not murder.

SecretAgentMonkey

I love it!

citizen01

secretagentmonkey...
You are christian?
Your doctrine is as follows "thou shalt not kill" - direct word of god. Also jesus preached that you should "turn the other cheek". In the face of these mandates from your own religion which you must follow to achieve eternal salvation how can you argue from a christian standpoint for killing someone who displeases you?

SecretAgentMonkey

There was a case recently of a guy who paid someone to punch is pregnant girlfriend. She was hospitalized and the baby miscarried. He's being charged with assault and murder. By this logic, is it really murder?

What about if someone went into a hospital and stabbed a comatose patient? Would that be murder?

Here's one thing we can agree on, this thing sucks you in...I need to get some work done!!!!

TheRealBen

How do you feel about a fetus that has yet to gain any brain activity, at that point it is not even a living animal. Which leads me to this once again.

A fetus with no brain activity is no different than a head of lettuce with no brain activity.

matt_a

Huh? That is exactly what is happening in an abortion. You are taking away the baby's right to live against his or her will.
The two topics are very different. Abortion is killing an innocent baby. No matter what the circumstanses, the baby is not guilty of anything.
Capital punishment is ending the life of a person who has been found guilty of a serious crime. The Baby had no choice, the criminal did. BIG difference.

citizen01

Realben...
How do I feel personally?

Had the person not killed the fetus it would have had a chance at life. From an atheist standpoint to take away someone's one shot at life seems unforgiveable.

SecretAgentMonkey

Actually, a human fetus is still a human, just at a different stage of development than you or I.

matt_a

Thank you.

citizen01

matt... can you answer the question I posed to secretagentmonkey?

I would like to also say that for complete strangers to have this conversation and not have any name calling etc to this point is AWESOME. Bravo SL.

matt_a

Sure...which question? lol

SecretAgentMonkey

Why yes, yes I am.

Jesus did say to "turn the other cheek" which means not to be vengeful. And the ten commandments states that though "Shall not kill". However, I think the Bible also defines what is or isn't murder. If you are at war, you can't turn the other cheek, you have to fight and kill the enemy. And I think it says something about capital punishment as well. I'll look it up after work.

SecretAgentMonkey

That one. ^^

seattledave

you're christian. so you should know/believe that any new testament idea/theology supercedes any conflicting old testament doctrine.

BigMURR

You use the Bible to explain your point and also say you don't follow it's teachings but you say murder is wrong? Where do you get that belief from?

SecretAgentMonkey

You're right. And Jesus spoke to the laypeople about not being vengeful. He told us not to take an eye when someone else takes your. If a guy killed my sister, I can't go and kill his sister as retaliation. He didn't say that the government should not punish murderers with death.

SecretAgentMonkey

Ok, I'm leaving for real now! I've got too much work to do!!!

matt_a

Oh, that question. Okay, here is how I see it. In Luke Chapter 20, People were watching Jesus to try and trap him in something they could hold against him. They knew that the Roman government was corrupt, so they asked Jesus if they should pay taxes to Caesar. He answered them by saying, "Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?" "Caesar's," they replied. He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
There is also another section (don't remember chapter & verse) where Jesus says all leaders and governments (good or bad) are in place by the will of God as part of his plan.
In other words, we are to obey the laws set in place by our government unless they directly contradict God's word.
So the way I see it is this: Abortion is always totally wrong because it's killing an innocent baby. I'm kind of on the fence with capital punishment, because our government has established it as a form of punishment according to our laws, and the person is NOT innocent. Like I said above, the baby had no choice...the criminal did.

citizen01

I use the bible to show the hypocracy in christians not to make any point of my own.

LOL... you think killing other people was a perfectly acceptable practice before the bible? Sorry but you guys aren't the only ones to know that killing other people is wrong.