Death Penalty
05-10-2007, 05:41 PM
#222
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Originally Posted by matt_a
There is also another section (don't remember chapter & verse) where Jesus says all leaders and governments (good or bad) are in place by the will of God as part of his plan.
(btw, do you believe god put hitler in power to kill all those jews?)
Originally Posted by matt_a
In other words, we are to obey the laws set in place by our government unless they directly contradict God's word.
05-10-2007, 05:48 PM
#223
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Originally Posted by citizen01
I use the bible to show the hypocracy in christians not to make any point of my own.
05-10-2007, 05:49 PM
#224
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The bible specificially says do not murder. How is abortion not the same as murder. As soon as 6 weeks into a pregnancy there are brain waves that can be detected, in a few more weeks, there is a heart beat. Thats life.
05-10-2007, 05:51 PM
#225
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Why??? Why did I have to look...now I'm sucked back in!!!!
Dave, actually the Bible does allude to the life of the unborn. It's not really a stretch. The Bible says God loves the people. The Bible also says that the body is just a vessel for the human soul. So the soul was there before birth, before the fetal stage, before conception. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 That to mean says that God put value in your life before you were even conceived so to kill someone in the womb is still killing something God values.
Dave, actually the Bible does allude to the life of the unborn. It's not really a stretch. The Bible says God loves the people. The Bible also says that the body is just a vessel for the human soul. So the soul was there before birth, before the fetal stage, before conception. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 That to mean says that God put value in your life before you were even conceived so to kill someone in the womb is still killing something God values.
05-10-2007, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by citizen01
Yeah... god said "thou shalt not kill" and our gov is directly breaking that law. I just don't get how or why you are trying so hard to argue for something god told you not to do.
05-10-2007, 05:54 PM
#228
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Oh yeah, we're going to find definitive answers to ancient philosophical, religious, moral, ethical, and social problems here on scionlife. NOT!
Death Penalty - yes- because some people NEED kill'n
The big diety in charge of it all told us not to kill - well, sure - right up to the point where he / she / it tells us we got to go out and smite the unbelievers because they're WRONG. Evil, naughty, and wrong. And then it's ok to kill folks. That whole "not killing" thing only applies to the people who agree with you at any given instance. WHEEEE! Situational ethics!!!! WOOT!
Death Penalty - yes- because some people NEED kill'n
The big diety in charge of it all told us not to kill - well, sure - right up to the point where he / she / it tells us we got to go out and smite the unbelievers because they're WRONG. Evil, naughty, and wrong. And then it's ok to kill folks. That whole "not killing" thing only applies to the people who agree with you at any given instance. WHEEEE! Situational ethics!!!! WOOT!
05-10-2007, 05:56 PM
#229
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Originally Posted by citizen01
Yeah... god said "thou shalt not kill" and our gov is directly breaking that law. I just don't get how or why you are trying so hard to argue for something god told you not to do.
05-10-2007, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SecretAgentMonkey
Why??? Why did I have to look...now I'm sucked back in!!!!
Dave, actually the Bible does allude to abortion. It's not really a stretch. The Bible says God loves the people. The Bible also says that the body is just a vessel for the human soul. So the soul was there before birth, before the fetal stage, before conception. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 That to mean says that God put value in your life before you were even conceived so to kill someone in the womb is still killing something God values.
Dave, actually the Bible does allude to abortion. It's not really a stretch. The Bible says God loves the people. The Bible also says that the body is just a vessel for the human soul. So the soul was there before birth, before the fetal stage, before conception. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 That to mean says that God put value in your life before you were even conceived so to kill someone in the womb is still killing something God values.
the bible says pre-martial sex is a sin, right?
and the bible, says marriage is between a man and a woman.
so all ___ people, no matter what, live and die in sin, right?
ubt i doubt every christian here believes every ___ person isn't really a christian and will burn in hell, right?
05-10-2007, 06:03 PM
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Do you think Christians should never be for punishment? The Bible says turn the other cheek...doesn't specify capital punishment, just when someone wrongs you. I think what Jesus said was to not take personal vengeance, which does not apply to government. If it did, Christians would have to be for the dismantling of the entire justice system.
A Christian being for punishment (even the capital kind) is not about vengeance.
I'll look for the capital punishment part in the Bible when I get time.
A Christian being for punishment (even the capital kind) is not about vengeance.
I'll look for the capital punishment part in the Bible when I get time.
05-10-2007, 06:04 PM
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Dave, I'm not going to pretend to understand God's plan for humanity. Bad things do happen for many, many different reasons. Often times I can clearly see how God uses those things for good. Othertimes, I don't see it at all. But just because I don't see it, doesn't mean that it's not there. That verse about all leaders (good and bad) being in place according to God's will, does NOT mean that all of them are good leaders. Some are pure evil. Only God truly knows what's in a man's heart and the motives for what he does.
05-10-2007, 06:10 PM
#236
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Originally Posted by matt_a
Dave, I'm not going to pretend to understand God's plan for humanity. Bad things do happen for many, many different reasons. Often times I can clearly see how God uses those things for good. Othertimes, I don't see it at all. But just because I don't see it, doesn't mean that it's not there. That verse about all leaders (good and bad) being in place according to God's will, does NOT mean that all of them are good leaders. Some are pure evil. Only God truly knows what's in a man's heart and the motives for what he does.
05-10-2007, 06:10 PM
#237
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Originally Posted by seattledave
Originally Posted by SecretAgentMonkey
Why??? Why did I have to look...now I'm sucked back in!!!!
Dave, actually the Bible does allude to abortion. It's not really a stretch. The Bible says God loves the people. The Bible also says that the body is just a vessel for the human soul. So the soul was there before birth, before the fetal stage, before conception. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 That to mean says that God put value in your life before you were even conceived so to kill someone in the womb is still killing something God values.
Dave, actually the Bible does allude to abortion. It's not really a stretch. The Bible says God loves the people. The Bible also says that the body is just a vessel for the human soul. So the soul was there before birth, before the fetal stage, before conception. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 That to mean says that God put value in your life before you were even conceived so to kill someone in the womb is still killing something God values.
the bible says pre-martial sex is a sin, right?
and the bible, says marriage is between a man and a woman.
so all ___ people, no matter what, live and die in sin, right?
ubt i doubt every christian here believes every ___ person isn't really a christian and will burn in hell, right?
God says, "I know you before you were conceived" and you say "HA! You didn't say I can't have an abortion! Got you!!" ...doesn't quite work for me.
05-10-2007, 06:21 PM
#238
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Originally Posted by seattledave
Originally Posted by matt_a
Dave, I'm not going to pretend to understand God's plan for humanity. Bad things do happen for many, many different reasons. Often times I can clearly see how God uses those things for good. Othertimes, I don't see it at all. But just because I don't see it, doesn't mean that it's not there. That verse about all leaders (good and bad) being in place according to God's will, does NOT mean that all of them are good leaders. Some are pure evil. Only God truly knows what's in a man's heart and the motives for what he does.
Like I said, I'm not going to claim to understand it all.
Isiah 55:8-9
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
05-10-2007, 06:23 PM
#239
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Interestingly enough, those opposed to capital punishment seem to be the ones who don't quite agree with the Bible while the Christians generally support the concept.
The anit-capital punishment crowd call us out on it because they know the "soundbites" of the Bible but don't go any farther. "Thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek". But what about the rest of the Bible?
To answer Dave's question about Hitler, read Romans 13: 1-7.
And for the topic of punishment see verse 4:
"For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
"he" is the government. If you do wrong, be afraid of your government because "he" is a servant of God and an agent of wrath. We are commanded to be without malice or vengeance, that is the place of the governing authority. God established capital punishment in the old testament and the new testament agrees with that, when it's done by the government...not individual people. If you or I did it, then it would be murder.
Just like Matt, I don't claim to understand what God's motives are. I just read His word and do what I can to adhere to it.
I'm not saying "you have to believe this because it's in the Bible". But people like Dave and Citizen brought up Christianity and how Christians justify their beliefs you think are contradictory to the book we claim to follow. All I can say is, there's more to the Bible than the soundbites everyone repeats to expose the "hypocrisies" of Christians.
The anit-capital punishment crowd call us out on it because they know the "soundbites" of the Bible but don't go any farther. "Thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek". But what about the rest of the Bible?
To answer Dave's question about Hitler, read Romans 13: 1-7.
And for the topic of punishment see verse 4:
"For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
"he" is the government. If you do wrong, be afraid of your government because "he" is a servant of God and an agent of wrath. We are commanded to be without malice or vengeance, that is the place of the governing authority. God established capital punishment in the old testament and the new testament agrees with that, when it's done by the government...not individual people. If you or I did it, then it would be murder.
Just like Matt, I don't claim to understand what God's motives are. I just read His word and do what I can to adhere to it.
I'm not saying "you have to believe this because it's in the Bible". But people like Dave and Citizen brought up Christianity and how Christians justify their beliefs you think are contradictory to the book we claim to follow. All I can say is, there's more to the Bible than the soundbites everyone repeats to expose the "hypocrisies" of Christians.
05-10-2007, 06:29 PM
#240
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Originally Posted by SecretAgentMonkey
Interestingly enough, those opposed to capital punishment seem to be the ones who don't quite agree with the Bible while the Christians generally support the concept.
The anit-capital punishment crowd call us out on it because they know the "soundbites" of the Bible but don't go any farther. "Thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek". But what about the rest of the Bible?
To answer Dave's question about Hitler, read Romans 13: 1-7.
And for the topic of punishment see verse 4:
"For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
"he" is the government. If you do wrong, be afraid of your government because "he" is a servant of God and an agent of wrath. We are commanded to be without malice or vengeance, that is the place of the governing authority. God established capital punishment in the old testament and the new testament agrees with that, when it's done by the government...not individual people. If you or I did it, then it would be murder.
Just like Matt, I don't claim to understand what God's motives are. I just read His word and do what I can to adhere to it.
I'm not saying "you have to believe this because it's in the Bible". But people like Dave and Citizen brought up Christianity and how Christians justify their beliefs you think are contradictory to the book we claim to follow. All I can say is, there's more to the Bible than the soundbites everyone repeats to expose the "hypocrisies" of Christians.
The anit-capital punishment crowd call us out on it because they know the "soundbites" of the Bible but don't go any farther. "Thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek". But what about the rest of the Bible?
To answer Dave's question about Hitler, read Romans 13: 1-7.
And for the topic of punishment see verse 4:
"For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
"he" is the government. If you do wrong, be afraid of your government because "he" is a servant of God and an agent of wrath. We are commanded to be without malice or vengeance, that is the place of the governing authority. God established capital punishment in the old testament and the new testament agrees with that, when it's done by the government...not individual people. If you or I did it, then it would be murder.
Just like Matt, I don't claim to understand what God's motives are. I just read His word and do what I can to adhere to it.
I'm not saying "you have to believe this because it's in the Bible". But people like Dave and Citizen brought up Christianity and how Christians justify their beliefs you think are contradictory to the book we claim to follow. All I can say is, there's more to the Bible than the soundbites everyone repeats to expose the "hypocrisies" of Christians.