TheRealBen

I sincerely hope that everyone that is pro-life because you should not kill is also starving themselves for the rest of their lives otherwise they are 100% hypocritical.

Explain with logic how a fetus or a human life has any more greater imprtance on its life than that of a cow or chicken or stock of celery, all of which are living organsisms as well.

seattledave

not sure i understand the connection to starving.

because humans have a soul, and cows do not.
or
because celery does not scream when you eat it(and cows just moo)
or
I only value intelligence in living organisms, and i'm not opposed to eating/killing lower life forms to sustain myself, especially if they taste good.

TheRealBen

So are you pro life or pro choice?

What I was posing to the contradictory pro-lifers was that when they eat something that was once a living organism they are no better than someone that kills an unborn baby.

I love myself a good burger or catfish filet or a salad, so I'm not going to make any sort of stance about being better than someone that thinks people should be allowed to make their own choices.

backseatchris

x2

But on an intelligence scale, a fetus is below a grown adult. So maybe this one works both ways for us?

seattledave

I'm prochoice, but i believe if a woman gets an abortion, she should be sterilized as well, in order to keep it under control. While I'm sure most women would gasp at that, guys would not. Tell a guy he gets sterilizied if he chooses to not keep a pregnancy, and 99% of them wouldn't have much if any problem.

i used to be just regular "pro-choice", until i had a kid.

I have female relatives and friends that have been to the doctors office more times in their life for abortions than anything else.

I put out those 3 explanations just for fun, as i'm an atheist.

Budsmoke

For those who are against capital punishment…. Alright, so you believe that government sanctioned “murders” are wrong. If you feel that they are wrong because you “value” life from a religious or moral standpoint, then fine. I won’t pick on you for your beliefs. I have no argument to tell you that you are wrong. But I would like to stir things up with the people that think it is wrong solely because it is an act of “revenge”. I had a wonderful time with this one in my college ethics class….

You say that we should not take this persons life simply because there are other options (life w/o parole) and to execute them is just acting on a desire for the “ultimate revenge” (death). Yet you also state that it would be better for them to rot in prison for the rest of their lives to think about what they did, than to end their life now and “let them off” from this potential “suffering” they would experience. So life in prison is more of a “punishment” than execution? If that is true, then who is the one asking for the “ultimate revenge”??? Wouldn’t it be more “merciful” to end their “suffering” now, as opposed to torturing them with their own conscience for the rest of their natural life?


I am for capital punishment. If there is irrefutable evidence that proves that this person is guilty of a heinous crime, then they are worthy of being removed from society. Not just to be removed from the “free” society, but to be removed from society completely (including the prison society).


I would like to bring to attention a particular case. A girl named Dru Sjodin was abducted after leaving work, in a mall parking lot in Grand Forks, North Dakota, while she was talking with her boyfriend on her cell-phone (probably planning their night of living). She was bound, raped, stabbed, and left to die half naked (waist down) in the middle of winter (snow, ice, below zero wind-chills) in a ditch in Crookston, Minnesota. A man named Alfonzo Rodriquez Jr. was charged with this act. Mall surveillance placed him on the scene. A knife sheath was found next to Dru’s car and her personal belongings in the parking lot. This sheath was a match to a knife that he owned. Dru’s blood (DNA) was found in his vehicle. Matching fibers were found on her body and in his vehicle. Her body was found in a ditch on his family’s remote property. His alibi was that he was at a movie at the time of the abduction, even though the movie he claimed to have been at hadn’t played in theaters for months beforehand.

12 individuals had heard the case (and all the exact details) and convicted him of this crime. The sentencing phase was a little more difficult because they had to decide whether to send him to life in prison w/o parole or to execute him. In the end, they literally signed a death warrant (12 signatures and the judge/D.A./etc.). Ordinary people (you and I) had to decide if it was justified to end his life (most likely against moral/religious/ethic beliefs) for what he did. They will have to live with this decision for the rest of their lives, so I can believe that they decided based on what they truly believed was righteous.

SecretAgentMonkey

I grew up less than 10 miles from where Dru was from. I never met her but that case really hit home for me. The irony is, I was a little more on the fence about his execution because it seemed like he didn't have the mental capacity to see the right and wrong of it (he was on the low-IQ end of things).

Here's what this whole issue is about for me...I believe human life is sacred (not cows or celery, Ben) but all human life. From the moment of conception, human life takes absolute priority. Even the pro-abortion guys admit the fetus is human. (Unless someone here wants to make a case that it's a different species). Now here's the kicker for you anti-capital punishment crowd. I value human life so much that I have to take a hardline on it's protection. If you take a life, you forfeit your own. Don't mess with something that's sacred. I believe the faith system I subscribe to supports these positions.

What it comes down to is personal responsibility. Pro-abortion/Anti-capital punishment people seem to want to remove as many consequences as possible. You have sex outside of marriage, a consequence is potential pregnancy. Oh, but wait...you don't need to worry about an unwanted pregnancy, you can just abort, no consequence there. You kill someone? You get caught but say "please don't kill me"? Oh, ok...because you said that, we'll just put you in prison. What that's telling me is the life of the killer is more valuable than the life of the victim. (And, some anti-capital punishment people here seem to want you to think the killer is suddenly the victim.)

It doesn't just apply to capital punishment or abortion. A couple days ago, some teens mugged a 60-something old man. The man had a gun on himself, and in an act of self-defense, shot one of the muggers in the shoulder. What do you think the outcome is so far? The muggers have not been charged with a crime but the old man is in trouble. I can't remember if he's been legally charged yet but the mugger is suing him. This case should be thrown out on it's ear. The mugger would not have been shot if he didn't commit a crime to begin with. The consequence of his illegal action is injury. But now he doesn't think he's responsible.

If you don't attack someone, you don't run the risk of them defending themselves. If you don't kill someone, you don't run the risk of being executed. If you don't have sex when you're not ready, you don't run the risk of getting pregnant.

!!!UP WITH PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!

SecretAgentMonkey

You guys bring up a good subject in and of itself. I wonder what the statistics are between repeat murderers (in prison or after their release) compared to statistics on capital punishment.

backseatchris

Why are only humans sacred to you? Because we have a higher brain function? Religion influence?

That explains a lot. We dont all subscribe to your beliefs. I for one am an atheist. I value developed human life very highly. Im not gonna sentence someone to death for killing someone else. If you think its ok to execute someone, your just like the murderer who thought it was ok to kill someone, your just legall yprotected to do so.

Not at all. We replace the midieval responsibilities with modern responsibilities.

Pretty much everyone worries about an unwanted pregnancy. Condoms break, IUD's fall out, chemicals interact with birth control pills, and accidents happen. People dont just have abortions on a whim, it is an event taken most seriously. It is one of the most difficult decisions a lot of females may ever have to make. And it is traumatic. I know, ive been there, i held her hand while they took out the 4 week old fetus.

Am i ashamed of her, no. am i proud of her, yes. She was strong enough to know that she could not offer the potential child the life it deserved, not to mention she didnt want that child. And the reality is, that child probably would have sat in an adoption home for years and years.

Neither life is more valuable than the other. on an economic scale, yes, the criminal is less valuable, but we see what happens when we let economics decide who lives or dies (iraq). The average american is worth $2 million. And to say its too expensive to keep someone in prison their whole life is a joke. If money is the reason you would rather have someone dead than alive, your pretty sick in the head.

Not enough info here. Where did it happen? How were the muggers attacking the man? It is against the law to use deadly force on someone to protect personal property. Deadly force is only allowed as a self defense when deadly force is being directed at you. If the kid kicked the guy in the *****, took his wallet and ran, but the guy shot him, then the kid needs to be in jail for theft and the old man in jail or at least fined for something else. That would not be permitted in that situation.

because its so great to go thru life and never take any risks. sounds pretty boring to me. i think i will just keep on living my life THE WAY I WANT TO and not the way any religion or person thinks. If it bothers you, so what, you can still live in your bubble of a world. Just stay at home and watch tv or something, wouldnt want anyone to run the risk of a car crash while driving to work. Dont make toast, you might have an electrical fire and burn down your neighborhood and destroy the ozone layer with all of the smoke, etc etc etc. I mean really, risk is a part of life.

SecretAgentMonkey

Ooh, this is a fun one.

How do you define "developed human life"? Is it higher brain functions? Is it viability? One could use this definition to rule out the mentally handicapped, comatose and babies.

What part of locking a someone in a cage for the rest of their life or letting a murderer back into society is considered "modern responsibilities"?

I don't worry about unwanted pregnancy. I don't worry about condoms breaking or IUDs falling out...I don't even have to worry about "accidents" like that. I'm in a position in life where having a baby isn't the best scenario...so guess what??? I don't have sex! My girlfriend and I have never had sex. If you aren't ready to deal with the consequences of an action, you are not ready to do that action. Anything else is just trying to justify what you aren't ready to do. If a 10 year old hops in a car and goes for a joy ride and gets into an accident, he can't say "well, I wore my seatbelt but hey accidents happen".

I especially like "she could not offer the potential child the life it deserved". So what you're telling me is "she can offer the child a life it deserved so we killed it instead".

Do you have any idea how long the waiting list is for a baby adoption??? You would have loving and well qualified parents lined up before you hit the third trimester! Like I said in an earlier post, I think abortion is one of the most selfish acts a human can commit.

I'm not talking monetary value. I'm talking social value or dare I say it...moral value.

They say the biggest reason he's in trouble is because he didn't try to escape first. But you don't know if there was any chance for him to escape to begin with. If I remember right, he was on a train platform...not much place to run there. And someone in his sixties isn't going to outrun teens.

Oh, there are plenty of risks in life. I should know, I've taken plenty in my life. You take risks everytime you step out the door. You take risks when you get married, when you finally do have kids, when you start a business. But when you take risks, you have to live with the consequence and not avoid them.

You're right, you have the choice to live life the way you want to, it's called free will (interestingly enough, it's also in the Bible). You can be as self-centered as you like, I haven't told you to do any different.

backseatchris

Anyone born is the bare minimum for a developed human, regardless of any handicaps. Anytime before birth, the fetus needs to be examed to really know the stage of development.

I would most definately not let a murderer back into society unless their rights were violated. I think we should be like every other modern country in the world and abolish the death penalty, but lengthen prison time. Im pretty sure most convicts would rather live in 'the cage' than be put to death, and i respect that. Even if they disrespected someone else, im better than that, and will let them live. Id prefer to ''sort em out'' while they are here rather than pretend that god will do it.

im sorry your girlfriend and you dont have sex. im sure you love her. Having sex with someone you love is probably one of the most loving, and close things two humans can share. Sorry you have not experienced that, but if you are truly happy, i am glad for you, really, all politics aside. Thats all i am arguing about, is letting people live the way they want, happily, and not infringing on other peoples right to choose.

Luckily my gf and i are ready for the consequences of an accident should happen. We keep a morning after pill just in case something should go wrong. i also have about $500 saved for an abortion if we didnt notice that an accident had occurred. Not everyone is as cautious as we are, but they should be. She has a copper IUD since she cant take any hormonal pill or IUD, since shes on antibiotics. We are very safe.

Theres not exactly people lining up to adopt kids. A lot of people apply but are not accepted, and for good reason. In california alone, there were roughly 100,000 children waiting to be adopted in 2006. And thats just one state.


Nothing wrong with being selfish. Its good to care about the people you love, but at the end of the day when you close your eyes, its just you and the pillow.

Budsmoke

So let’s say that MadmanX kills a dozen people because he thought it would be fun. He gets caught and sent to prison for life. Ok, he’s no longer walking among us. But let’s say that 25 years later, there’s a discovery. The bodies found (the ones that guaranteed his conviction) were only found because his lawyer leaked that information to the authorities. THAT MAN’S RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED!!!! Unlock those bars, set him free.


Very true. So you continue to execute those darn unwanted and unborn babies. I’ll continue to execute those unwanted criminal scums (notice how I didn’t call them intelligent humans right there). Now we’re both happy.

SecretAgentMonkey

Not taking a human life make you better than them to begin with. When the government carries through on a punishment for the ultimate crime doesn't lower you to that level.

If it is not the government's place to execute murderers, then what gives the government the right to imprison someone in the first place?

You're right, sex is one of the most loving acts committed between two people...when those two people are ready for what might result. However, putting your own desires above the physical or emotional pain you might cause the other person with an unwanted pregnancy is not loving. It's actually a very selfish act.

Just so you know, I have actually had sex before...I was once married. So I know what I'm missing and consequences outweigh the pleasure because I love my girlfriend too much to put her in that position. Remember, there's more to love than sex.

Also, I noticed your so worried about what I say. MONKEY: "I believe abortion is wrong". CHRIS: "Don't infringe upon my right!!!" Why do you care what I think anyway? I'm not judging you, I'm just stating my beliefs as you are stating yours.

Eh, I don't see that as ready for the consequences as much as running away from them.

You said children. If I'm not mistaken, "children" don't come out of the womb so much as "babies" do. Children over a certain age really get a raw deal. People want babies, not children. I know a number of couples who have adopted overseas because the waiting list on newborns in America is a couple years long. My heart goes out to the children and have talked to my girlfriend about adopting an older child as well as having children of our own, when we're ready.

I'd be interested in knowing the statistic for new borns (like your situation would be) in CA.
You know what? Everyone is selfish. There are no self-less acts. When you do the the house so your girlfriend doesn't have to, you're looking for a reward. When I help my girlfriend with something so she doesn't have to do it alone, I'm looking for the affection she returns. When mother Theresa cared for the children of Calcutta, she was doing it because it made her feel better and she wanted rewards from God. But when you're head hits the pillow at night, it's between you and the repercussions of your selfish acts. Though I'm not sure how we got on this in the first place.

krustytheclown

This is mainly directed to chris...

What I want to know is that why is it ok to kill a fetus? What makes them any less important than me or you? What constitutes a human to you? A fetus with a heartbeat and Brainwaves isn't important to you? Why is killing a fetus any more caring than having the baby, and then giving it up for adoption? You wouldn't have the responsibility of having a kid for 18+ years.

backseatchris

You are only killing a fetus beyond a certain point of production. Before that point, a fetus is nothing more than a cluster of cells that have been injected with dorment human DNA. These cells are a direct result of the mothers bioogical function, and are her cells until the DNA becomes active in the development of the fetus.

The whole argument that "It has human DNA and brainwaves, therefore it is human from conception" is a weak argument. It is partly true, partyl untrue.

We all start out as a cluster of cells in an empty shell. Thats why men have nipples, etc. That DNA in that body is completely dorment until activated, and then maybe you can argue that its a bit human. Now, the brain waves argument. Yes, there can be brain waves from very early on in development, but they are not thought patterns. They are electrodes firing off to keep the brain healthy and growing during development. Actual thoughts occur later on.

So, after a certain point, yes, you are terminating a humans life, but early on, you are preventing the development of a humans life.

I am against late term abortions unless there is a medical reason to do so.

I am tolerant of early term abortions if the person does not want the child. It is her body to do what she wants with.

Budsmoke

On April 19th, 1995, Timothy James McVeigh detonated a bomb that killed 168 people and injured several hundred.

On June 11th 2001, the U.S. Government executed this man for his deeds.

Let’s take a look at the motives for these “killings”…..

Timothy – I don’t like the U.S. Government. I’m going to kill as many people as possible, simply because they work in this government building.

U.S. Government – We are going to execute this man for his heinous crime against our society. There is no place in this world (including jail) for such a man who does what he did.

So now you’re going to sit there and tell us that executing 1 guilty man is the same as him killing 168 innocent men, women, and children?

It’s easy to look at the death penalty in general, and to state how “wrong” it is. Now take a look at individual cases, and tell me why these people’s lives are so precious and worthy of existence. Tell me why Timothy McVeigh should be sitting in a cell, reading/writing books, making friends/enemies, eating to fulfill his hunger, going to sleep to dream, and waking up the next day to do it all again, and again, and again. Meanwhile, 168 people died in a matter of minutes (if not fractions of a second), not even enough time to tell their loved ones goodbye.

backseatchris

it doesnt matter if he killed 168 people or exterminated 40 million people, you nor any judge and jury should have the right to tell someone they are going to die.

he had no right to kill all of those people.

Honestly, i would have loved to strangle those terrorists from 9/11, every child molestor, every murderer, every rapist, etc, but i like to think that we as humans have evolved beyond killing one another for retribution.

i would liked to have shot the guy that killed my grandparents, but i prefer that he sit in jail for the rest of his life