citizen01

Sorry. I did say "say". Christians think it at the very least. It is in thier doctrine. When you walk down the street and see a woman and a woman kissing you think to yourself that they are inferior because they are sinning where as a non christian would just see two people that like each other.

oldmanatee

No, I am sorry, but your argument holds no water.

The majority of Christians do not support these people with the exception of Billy Graham.

True Christians care more for the spreading of the Word than the perception of the speaker.

krustytheclown

The majority of "christians" believe in non-biblical ideas, that came from pagan origins, and dont deserve to be called christians.

citizen01

oldmanatee,
You say that my argument holds no water but offered no refute to it. Can you tell me that as a christian you don't look at ___ couples and think that they are sinning? Sorry but my argument does indeed hold water. I don't know what argument you were talking about. The point is that all christians judge people, only the ones with courage will come out and say what they really think.

oldmanatee

No, Christians are not supposed to pass judgement like that. If I see 2 women or 2 men kissing on the street, I don't like it, but it is not for me to judge those peoples' actions.
Hate the sin, love the sinner.

oldmanatee

Hey, the server here is so slow today it is infuriating! The 'holds no water' comment was about how the majority of Christians follow Fallwell, Robertson et al....


Sorry for the confusion...

citizen01

Not "supposed too" and and "don't" are two very different things. However since I have no statistics (only personal experience) to back this up and niether do you I will say "most" and you can say "some".

seattledave

I really disagree. Maybe you don't count yourself as an evangelical, ubt they are the majority of christians.

Ah and good ole billy graham, while openly he has not been captured on tape saying such outlandish things as falwell and robertson, a few things that did get recorded are:

“Is AIDS a judgment of God? I could not say for sure, but I think so.”

“I go and I keep friends with Mr. A.M. Rosenthal at the “New York Times” and people of that sort, you know. And all — I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of Jews are great friends of mine. They swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country and I have no power, no way to handle them. But I would stand up, if under proper circumstances.”

or the fun:

NIXON: “Newsweek” is totally — it's all run by Jews and dominated by them in their editorial pages. The “New York Times, the “Washington Post”, totally Jewish too.

GRAHAM: And they're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff. But this stranglehold has got to be broken or this country is going to go down the drain.

NIXON: Do you believe that?

GRAHAM: Yes, sir.

NIXON: I can't ever say it, but I believe it.

GRAHAM: But if you get elected a second time, we might be able to do something.

and there are more...

oldmanatee

I just hope that when you say "most", you will remember that "most" of the Christians you talk with here don't.

I enjoy our discussions.

seattledave

What it seems is most christians here and there, don't support their leaders once they're involved in scandal. totally understandable. You probably would have had no problem saying you support ted haggard a year ago, right? But now, "he's not a real christian", right?

like the ten's of millions of catholics that are banding their money together to silence children that have been molested by priests and church leaders. When you say it like that, no one says they're doing it, but they're still passing out collection plates at these churches and obviously some of that money is being used to settle with victims out of court, right?

If it's against your belief to judge others, and say their not a christian, when they say they are, then why are you doing it?

citizen01

Dave,
While that money does go toward such things as you mentioned I would not say that "millions of catholics are banding thier money together to silence children...". However I will say that they are not completely absolved. Donating monaey to any cause blindly is just plain stupid.

seattledave

Thats why i threw in "When you say it like that, no one says they're doing it"

Of course, you’re not supposed to say it like that. No, you’re supposed to sugar coat it, so it doesn’t sound so bad.

The catholic church is paying out hundreds of millions of dollars to victims, so nobody has to accept wrongdoing, and the priests can just be moved to another parish. Where did all that money come from? The collection plate. And money that is going in to some of those plates, just this last Sunday even, will go to silence more victims, so yes tens of millions of catholics are paying to silence children that have been molested. But let’s put it into a phrase that looks nice:

“The catholic church is just trying to compensate victims of evil men that abused their power.”

My, what nice guys they are, i'm sure that money comes from fantasy land and these priests never are repeatedly transferred to continue molesting kids.

oldmanatee

Dave, what is so wrong with the quotes from Dr. Graham? Isn't he entitled to an opinion just like every other person?

What do you really think he could do in Israel? A couple of batallions of Baptists? Once the fried chicken ran out, so would they....

citizen01

He is entitled to his message of hate and intolerance just as is the KKK who also preaches an intolerant message. Go ahead... try to tell me how it is different... this should be good.

oldmanatee

OK, sit back....
Dr. Graham talks of saving souls and the kingdom of God, he has no hate of human beings, he has hate for sin and Satan. The KKK spaeks of the senseless murders of people they don't like because of their skin color....
Not quite the same message.

citizen01

He maintains that god inflicted a deadly disease on gays because of thier sexual orientation. Aids has taken more lives than the KKK. Why is the belief in a superior sexual orientation different than the belief in a superior skin color?

(I am sitting back. I have no choice cause this site is so slow.)

oldmanatee

Whew, I thought it was just slow on my end.....

I think you are taking just one quote and trying to make an argument....First, in my opinion, Dr. Graham is a very intelligent man, I think he is a very Godly man,(but you don't believe in God, so that is pointless....)BUT.... he is a man. All men are prone to sin. All will fall short of the glory of God. He has an opinion about the origin of a terrible disease, that while I don't know when this quote was taken, I'm willing to bet it was when AIDS wasn't well researched as to the causes and how it was spread. No matter, he never said to go out and kill everybody with AIDS.

citizen01

Ok... Let me put it this way. If I said to you "I believe cancer is a result of my god punishing those awful sinners who drive xbs" then what? Would you say that I am "intelligent"? "Godly"? Tolerant? No, because you twist things to fit your christian view.

citizen01

All I did is substitute "cancer" for "aids" and "sinners who drive xbs" for "sinners who have homosexual relations". If I truly believe people who drive xbs are sinners based on nothing but my own doctrine how is it any different?

seattledave

In 1993, Graham said before a record-breaking crowd in Columbus, Ohio "Is AIDS a judgment of God? I could not say for sure, but I think so." After seeing letters criticizing that comment, Graham later said "I remember saying it, and I immediately regretted it and almost went back and clarified the statement," and "To say God has judged people with AIDS would be very wrong and very cruel."

it's like saying one thing, then wink-wink, i didn't mean it.

I do this all the time myself, saying things like a god doesn't exist, but after receiving complaints I say "i didn't mean it, that's horrible".