R2D2

EvilBoxEvil ^ LOL Funny guy...
In part, our government makes us responsible for our family in some ways, so our "individual freedoms" do have limitations... In other ways, they can even make you responsible for your freakin pet - Yes, repsonsible for your pet - Which can potentially mean jail time F.Y.I.

Scott17

R2D2 just got his nuts punted!

R2D2

^ crawl back in ur lil hole...

Scott17

Yeah, the pet YOU bought, not a pet your great-great-grandfather had! How much education exactly do you have? You stated earlier how smart you were, but to be honest, it's not really evident in your posts.

Maicca

What you have been stating so far is (let me paraphrase):

Yes, they have committed a "crime".....................but they're not in the same "category" as "CRIMINALS".
Yes, they have committed a "crime"............... but they did it for "survival".
Yes, they have committed a "crime"................ but it's OK because we're all immigrants.
Yes, they have committed a crime.............. but it's OK because hundreds of years ago your forefather did something bad and it's your responsibility.

See a pattern here? You're making excuses.

Let's just move on to a point:
WHEN YOU COMMIT A CRIME, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL - true or false?
Please no BUTS, IFS, or EXCUSES. It's a true or false question.

Scott17

R2D2s going beep beep boop beep boop boop beep!

evilBOXevil

You know, if Somebody went to a country....oh lets just say...um...France. Yeah, France. And you were demonstrating with a few hudred thousand others, demanding that the french government give you the legal right to live in Frnace and 'benefits' from the french government-and most people in your march looked like this:


The result would probably be something like this:


Or in many parts of the world, it might go like this:


So to those who talk about how evil, or oppressive America is-- you should try this elsewhere....ooops! thats right- you can't walk to most of these countries, and some of them have borders that looks like this:


Oh, that evil America! ....?

R2D2

Wow Scott17... you are truely stupidity at its worse. Besides leeching off other peoples posts, don't you have anything original to say on your own? Or do you need training wheels to post?
F.Y.I. The government can make you accountable (to some degree) for your "father/mother/kid/pet/family".....

Maicca, Don't paraphrase, specially if you don't understand my point.
If it broke down to be that simple you'd have a good point... However its not that simple.
Quote: "WHEN YOU COMMIT A CRIME, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL - true or false? " I say TRUE.
On the same token, if a hundred years ago it was deemed "legal" to immigrate, than a hundred years later you do the EXACT samething but now are labelled a "criminal", is that initial act criminal or not? And if it is, doesn't that make both incidents identical? So how can there be two different justifications???
See my point here? You probably won't, however I had to try...

evilBOXevil

I don't think that a hundred years ago walking across the border in the middle of the night was the legal definition of immigration.

Scott17

If your reply to every post is: "you don't get my point", then chances are - YOU DON'T HAVE A POINT!!!! Your "100 years ago" theory is retarded in this context. 100 years ago, cocaine was legal, is it legal now? Slavery was legal a long time ago, should it be legal now??? DUH!!!!!!

R2D2

Wow to the maximum.... Scott17 its pointless even replying to YOUR STUPIDITY.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________


Case & Point:
IF IMMIGRATION WAS A CRIME, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO U.S.A.

End of subject.

Maicca

Glad that we could agree on a common ground.

Next up:
When you enter a country without permission nor authorization, you are committing a crime - TRUE OR FALSE?



A hundred years ago, people could still come to the US and enter- once they have filled out the proper paperwork. What we have been discussing are people who sneak across our borders.

I think what you are attempting to say is that several hundred years ago, people came to the US and stayed without any paperwork, etc. and now this act is illegal. And it is "wrong" that it is illegal now, since people did it before.

Am I right?

Let me break this down, for my own thoughts.

Performing ACT X was legal 100 years ago.
Performing ACT X is NOT legal now.

Performing ACT X 100 years ago- was it legal or not? YES.
Does that make both incidents(100 years apart) identical? The actual act, yes. The legality, no.
How can there be two different justifications? Simple- that was then, this is now.

Slavery was legal. It isn't now.
Using marijuana, cocaine, etc. was legal. It isn't now.
Killing was legal (Old West). It isn't now.
Racial discrimination was legal. It isn't now.

Now, for all of the above, they were thought to have been perfectly legal, moral, and upright at the time. Are they now? No.

Crib Notes: Just because something was legal then and thought to be correct doesn't mean it is today.

ON BEHALF OF ALL AMERICANS, I WELCOME YOU TO THE 21ST CENTURY.

evilBOXevil

What are you talking about?

Immigration is not a crime. My wife was an immigrant, and is now a US citizen. It was all perfectly legal. Really.

Maicca

Uhm, hello? Immigration has never been a crime. ILLEGAL immigration IS a crime.

Here, read this and get back to the rest of us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigra..._United_States

R2D2

Twisting my words around -
Quote: "Now, for all of the above, they were thought to have been perfectly legal, moral, and upright at the time. Are they now? No.
Crib Notes: Just because something was legal then and thought to be correct doesn't mean it is today. "
^ Absolutely.
However, I'm talking about labelling imgrants "criminals". That label just doesn't work... Specially when they've done nothing wrong (except for the topic we keep referring to - immigration).

TimmyT

I don't know how many times i've seen illegal aliens flee the scene of an accident or hit and run because they are here illegally and don't want to get caught.

R2D2

Damn everytime i post a response there comes returns double quick... U Bastards!!!
Okay, so now we're on the topic or Immigration Vs. Illegal Immigration.
Technically speaking it is a "criminal"... I've been stating that... Hello??? Anyone home???
At the same time, if they locked you in a room with a real criminal Vs. an "illegal immigrant" which would you rather choose?
My point is, although you've labelled them "criminals", in general they haven't honestly done anything majorly "criminal", and therefore shouldn't labelled as such. Maybe if we called them "misdemeanors" we could all get along in the 21st century... LoL
In essence, what I'm saying is the term "criminal" is too harsh of a word. We all came from somewhere, and we all deserve a chance in life no matter what country we're from or dwell in.

Tomas

R2D2, you obviously fail to understand the rigors of logical debate, and in some cases continue to return to needless and pointless ad hominem attack.

One hundred three years ago when my grandfather came into this country there were laws regarding immigration. As today, some of those laws defined who was allowed and who was disallowed. There were also requirements in both times to 'check in' and provide identification and a certain amount of detailed information to US officials before being allowed to enter legally.

I can tell you, from the official entry papers I have from my grandfather, where he was born, where he lived, where he boarded a ship to come here (and what ship it was), when and where he arrived in th US, what nationality he was, what language he spoke, an approximation of his name, his closest relatives, his reason for coming here, what he planned to do here, and other miscelaneous information.

Had he refused to provide that information to the US immigration official at Ellis Island, he would likely have been deported without having been given a chance to live in this country for years, begin a family, become a citizen.

His lot wasn't an easy one, either. As a teenager coming here on his own he ended up settling in southwestern Pennsylvania, working in a coal mine for Thompson Mines, living in company housing in a company town (Thompson #2), marrying another immigrant (from a different country, with a different native language), and raising a family who all did their best to get away from Thompson Mines. (In fact, when my father came back from Japan after WWII, he settled across the country from there, and only went back to PA on occasion to visit.

Most of that detail is not germain to this thread (difficult to call it a discussion, impossible to call it a debate), but is merely useless filler. What does apply is that even when my grandfather entered this country from Eastern Europe 103 year ago, there were immigration laws and requirements that if not met would get a person deported - just as there are today.

(Sorry, I keep mentioning my father's side of the family, not my mothers. Suffice it to say that she was born on an indian reservation in northern Minnesota, and that branch of the family is a mix of Irish, English, Swedish, and native American, and the earliest of the immigrants among THOSE folks arrived here just before the US civil war, and in fact two of them were in the Union Army, one wounded - I still have the mini-ball that was removed from his thigh.)

Guess that makes me a 'mutt' with at least one tiny branch of my family going all the way back to this nations first 'immigrants' who came across the land bridge from Asia an unbelievable number of years ago.
________________

BTW, everyone, lets stay away from personal attacks on other members and stick to discussing "Immigration Reform" - personal attacks on others is forbidden by the ScionLife rules, and will NOT be tolerated. We have rules here that need to be followed, also, and even have our OWN form of deportation. Thank you.

evilBOXevil

If that's your only real point, I don't think you have to worry too much. Sneaking across the border has been illegal, and considered criminal since immigration laws have been in place. The government has been doing all of this talk about making things harder on those who are caught illegaly within US borders, but it probably wont do too much. Unless, of course, that this whole issue was orchestrated to polarize the country and to get everybody to feel unified about something-and improve the publics view of a government that has no concern about problems within our own borders.

And if it was orchestrated by the government and media (which I personally doubt), there are a whole lot of people involved-inlcuding the Los Angeles diocese of the roman Catholic church. Bush says;"Thank you, Cardinal Mahoney for helping to manipulate the masses in our favor. I knew being against abortion and same sex marriage would pay off someday."

They've never been really interested in enforcing the laws as they were, and unless the public cries out a whole hell of a lot, they're not likely to do much now. Does illegal labor hurt the US economy? Yes, but not everybody. Our current "leaders" have demonstrated many times that the US economy as a whole, is not their concern. The fact is- as long as there are governmentally influential companies that need cheap labor in order to make mega profits, and as long as their are stupid people willing to do the work for $3 a day-it's unlikely that this will ever be anything more than a political issue for dorky guys on an internet scion board, and something for old men in grey suits to posture about in Washington.

Hundreds of thousands of allegedly illegal people took to the streets, in broad daylight, and no action was taken. There were thousands of people who were openly in defiance of US law, and the INS and law enforcement showed no interest at all.
You can carry on about how it feels icky to label people as criminal, but so what? Nobody really cares. ...and if they did, you'd be seeing busloads of people headed south-waving byebye, and a big old razorwire fence going up with armed guys all along our border.

The real problem is having a government that is selective as to which laws to enforce, and where and when to enforce them. It's unfair to the people (taxpayers) who pay them for a job they aren't doing, and unfair to the people who went thru alot to get into this country the proper way. Not everybody can just walk over here, you know?

Tomas

Here's some 'not politically correct' humor left over from the LAST time we went through this very same monkey motion about hordes of illegal aliens coming across out souther border (yes, some of us are actually old enough that 20 years ago seems quite recent).

Wish I could remember which stand up comedian uttered this in 1986...
________________

Know why Mexico doesn't have an Olympics team?
'Cause everyone who can run, jump, or swim is coming to the US.
*rimshot*
________________

Focusing only on our southern border, however, and the huge number of Mexicans and other Hispanics illegaly crossing the border, is obscuring some of the even more potentially serious problems of turning a blind eye to who is entering our country.

Not everyone on this planet is our friend. Not everyone on this planet wishes us well.

If nothing else, we need control of who is entering simply to give us SOME chance to protect ourselves.

This isn't just about all the cheap labor flooding in from the south, and it is a disservice to folks concerned about our security to focus only on that (numericly large) problem.