Maicca

Hispanic:Though often used interchangeably in American English, Hispanic and Latino are not identical terms, and in certain contexts the choice between them can be significant. Hispanic, from the Latin word for “Spain,” has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common. Latinowhich in Spanish means "Latin" but which as an English word is probably a shortening of the Spanish word latinoamericanorefers more exclusively to persons or communities of Latin American origin. Of the two, only Hispanic can be used in referring to Spain and its history and culture; a native of Spain residing in the United States is a Hispanic, not a Latino, and one cannot substitute Latino in the phrase the Hispanic influence on native Mexican cultures without garbling the meaning. In practice, however, this distinction is of little significance when referring to residents of the United States, most of whom are of Latin American origin and can theoretically be called by either word. ·A more important distinction concerns the sociopolitical rift that has opened between Latino and Hispanic in American usage. For a certain segment of the Spanish-speaking population, Latino is a term of ethnic pride and Hispanic a label that borders on the offensive. According to this view, Hispanic lacks the authenticity and cultural resonance of Latino, with its Spanish sound and its ability to show the feminine form Latina when used of women. Furthermore, Hispanicthe term used by the U.S. Census Bureau and other government agenciesis said to bear the stamp of an Anglo establishment far removed from the concerns of the Spanish-speaking community. While these views are strongly held by some, they are by no means universal, and the division in usage seems as related to geography as it is to politics, with Latino widely preferred in California and Hispanic the more usual term in Florida and Texas. Even in these regions, however, usage is often mixed, and it is not uncommon to find both terms used by the same writer or speaker. See Usage Note at Chicano.

Essentially, we shouldn't use the term at all. Hispanic refers to "originating from Spain." Well, most people from South American countries don't. Can't call them Spanish, because they didn't come from Spain. Can't call them Latinos, because none of them use Latin.

Let's just all agree to call them South Americans.

Maicca

NOW, look who's reading into people's hidden thoughts....

Again..... He never said anything about other languages being forbidden. I, who am bi-lingual, feel offended when I see signs written in Spanish and English.

Why am I offended? Because I know that all that is because big business is trying to cater to the surging South American populance. However, if everything were to be written in SEVERAL languages (with English being bolded), then I'd have no problem with it. Do you think that odd? Perhaps Scott17 would agree with me.

Scott17 has a healthy dose of American xenophobia and speaks his mind.

R2D2, have you been to another country? One that's radically different than the US?

I have, and although this was definitely a first-world and highly advanced society, there was still an occasional van than rolled through the city streets with loudspeakers extolling the evils of Western society and blacks, whites, etc.

Yeah, I had a chuckle on that one. But honestly, that's not mainstream. There's xenohobia in ALL cultures.

scionofPCFL

I have finally come to a decision that I am comfortable with on this. We need to do two things:

- Make it much more difficult to get into the country illegally (covertly, discretly, and under-the-radar are interchangeable terms here to me). So yeah, the fence. Only problem is, guess who's going to be building the fence. So, they will have a jump on citizenship.

- Make it much easier to be here legally meaning, streamline the process.

Tomas

Hmmmmm... In my local area there are MANY shops - even entire strip malls - with no signs in English. In those shops it is often difficult to communicate with the shopkeepers/employees in English, because it is not a language understood - or accepted. From the street it is often impossible to determine what these nice, well kept, modern stores offer as a product or service - there are no hints, just these signs in non-English. No one complains strongly about having to read and speak this foreign language to do business with these stores.

In Philly, there is a steak sandwich place where the employees speak English, and all of the signs are in English. They have one sign that says "This is America -- when ordering speak English." This is because if you try to order in any language the employees don't understand, they uh, won't understand.

Roberto Santiago, executive director of Philadelphia's Council of Spanish Speaking Organizations, said he was "appalled" by the policy. Santiago said he has urged Latinos to boycott Geno's Steaks.

Owner of Geno's, Joey Vento, said "There is nobody who can say they are turned down because of the language. They can point if they want to."

I find it amazing that in a country that is overwhelmingly English speaking, and has been since it's founding, that ASKING customers to speak English to place an order is loudly objected to by an Hispanic organization, while entire malls where English isn't written or spoken pass with little comment.

The thing that annoys me the MOST, however, is the Hispanic leader putting words in the restaurant owner's mouth:

"I think what's coming out of his mouth is racist," said Santiago. "He is saying, 'I don't like these brown faces in my community and I will do everything I can to get them out of there.'"

What he actually said is: "This is America -- when ordering speak English."

There IS a difference.

Falsely claiming he said anything else, and building a boycott on that lie, is bull...

(Oh, BTW, those shops and malls here are not Hispanic, they are Korean.)

__________________

Eatery's English-only sign raises ire
By Jon Hurdle

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A sign in a landmark Philadelphia restaurant asking customers to order in English is sparking controversy in the metropolis known as the "City of Brotherly Love."

The owner of Geno's Steaks said on Thursday that the sign, "This is America -- when ordering speak English," is intended to encourage immigrants to learn the language and assimilate into U.S. society, but one Latino activist said it's racist.

The controversy comes amid a national debate over immigration in the United States. The U.S. Senate passed an immigration bill last month that includes a provision which would make English the national language.

"They should be glad that I put the sign up. I'm trying to help them to speak English," said Joey Vento, 66, whose grandparents moved to the United States from Italy. "Without the English language, they are going to have a lot of problems in this country.

"There is nobody who can say they are turned down because of the language," he added. "They can point if they want to."

The sign, which Vento posted at his cheese steak restaurant about six months ago and says he has no intention of removing, has made some people angry.

Roberto Santiago, executive director of Philadelphia's Council of Spanish Speaking Organizations, said he was "appalled" by the policy.

"I think what's coming out of his mouth is racist," said Santiago. "He is saying, 'I don't like these brown faces in my community and I will do everything I can to get them out of there.'"

Santiago said he has urged Latinos to boycott Geno's Steaks, a fixture in South Philadelphia's Little Italy neighborhood which has seen an influx of Hispanic immigrants in recent years.

Vento denied that anyone would be refused service if they ordered one of the sliced beef-and-cheese sandwiches, a famed bit of cuisine in the Quaker-founded "City of Brotherly Love," in a language other than English.

Tony Luke, co-owner of competitor Tony Luke's restaurant, said Vento has taken "too much of a hard line" with non-English-speaking customers.

"You can't be expected to learn English in a week," he said. "We will be a lot more tolerant than that."

© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.
{tpyos fixed *sigh*}

Scott17

I get chapped when I see Spanish Yellow Pages and such BS. If we had a Whites Only Yellow pages, these guys would sh*t!!!A level playing field is all I ask.....

scionofPCFL

Just because it's written in Spanish does not imply "Brown Only", therefore your analogy is waaaaaayyyy off.

And if you want a "level playing field", you would be in for a rude awakening as things are heavily tilted towards white males in this country, despite the constant attacks you see and hear in the media. Being born a white male on the shores of the United States of America is still the single greatest built in advantage that anyone could have.

IMPORTANT NOTE:I am not saying that "I am better because I am a white male". I am meerly acknowledging that there are advantages built into the system that I am not responsible for as they were here centuries ago and it will take a few generations to disappear completly. BTW they are slowly eroding, and that is good thing...not for me, but for everyone else mind you. Get my point?

Tomas

Additional thoughts on the cheese steak stink:

When I go to any number of restaurants that have their 'menus' written in a foreign language (Spanish, Lebanese, Hindi, French, etc.) I do my best to order using the words on the menu if I possibly can - if I can't manage that, I'll often point to the item.

I don't 'translate' that into the language I'm familiar with.

If I walk up to Torrero's (one of my absolute favorite Mexican food places) and order, I order with the (Spanish) words on the menu.

I personally don't think it's too much to ask that folks in Philly use the words on the menu, or point to the items. If you want a cheese steak sandwich, say "cheese steak" not "emparedado de filete del queso"... :D

scionofPCFL

The Geno's thing is just silly. It's just as silly for him to put a sign out as it is for the "Hispanic Leaders" to rally a boycott. If people are offended, they will not eat there, period. It's commerce folks, and the true color of the US is green, it is very much non-discriminating and doesn't care what language you speak.

surfcity40

i agree that their should be a universal language in the u.s. i just think it should be something other than english. english is no more appropriate a universal language here than spanish, vietnamese, german, etc. it gives the immigrants from central europe a leg up on every other immigrant.

i say we decide on a new language that everyone has to learn. possibly, oh, say....one of the south african khosian tribal language of clicks? that would level the playing field and allow everyone to fit in (because we'd all have to band together to learn that $#!+).

Tomas

Make it Esperanto, maybe? (Been way too many years since I learned some basic Esperanto in junior high.)

I think you'd have a justifiably difficult time convincing about 280,000,000 Americans to give up English. This has been an English speaking country since it was founded - our most basic founding words, the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, are written in English. To undeerstand just those two things, one needs to understand English - something is ALWAYS lost in translation - the 'map' is different.

(BTW, I've been to Philly, in fact my very first cheese steak was actually from Geno's, and one thing I discovered is people in Philly DON'T speak "English"...)

scionofPCFL

What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages? Bi-lingual.

What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Tri-lingual.

What do you call someone who speaks 4 languages? quadlingual.

and finally,

What do you call somone who speaks one language? American :-)

Tomas

Yup. Someone living in north middle America (say, Nebraska) can travel a thousand miles in any direction with no need for another language, and most people die within 50 miles of where they were born.

In reality most Americans have no NEED for anything but English as a spoken language.

In my opinion their lives might be richer learning more languages, but they really will probably NEVER use them in 'real life.'

In Europe if one travels a thousand miles one has of necessity traveled through many countries and many languages.

I live in a fairly small state, but just driving from my state's largest to second largest city is far enough to travel out of most European countries.

Here's something to look at on a world globe: Driving from LA to NYC is roughly the same as driving from Lisbon, Portugal to Moscow, Russia. In the one case you did your entire drive in one English speaking country. In the other you drove through HOW many countries and had to get by in HOW many languages? Big difference, and a decent explanation of why 'we' only speak English.

It's also more efficient...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...anslation.html

surfcity40

i call b.s on that. latinos who don't speak english aren't ordering cheesesteaks in spanish OR english. and that being said, those that are, are not gonna boycott the best one because of a misunderstanding.
and btw, R2D2, i wasn't being racist, i was being ethnocentric.
(you keep erroneously pulling the "race" card regarding latino/hispanic issues when this group is an "ethnicity" not a race. so at "worst" Scott17 is ethnocentric.)

scionofPCFL

Yup, I knew that, but things change. For instance, we are living in an increasingly world economy. Those who speak Spanish and/or Chinese will have far greater access to higher paying positions in the business world than those who do not. Especially at companies like GM...kind of odd when you step back and think about it. At one point, one of the greatest companies on the planet and an icon of the American way. Now if you want a solid career there, you gotta learn to speak a new language.

TimmyT

.. English is the language of business. English is the language of aviation.

The majority of the world speaks Chinese, then followed by English.

People who speak another language will excel in business, Not because they speak spanish or chinese. But because they speak spanish or chinese in ADDITION to english.

Being bilingual is great... if one of the languages is English.

Tomas

Heh. At no point did I even suggest that the problem around Geno's sign was a real one, only that some folks are trying to crank it up to BE one.

It IS a flap making international news right now because some blowhard who heads a group of 'other language speakers' is trying to make a big deal of it. (And unless you are standing in Geno's, how do you know how cheese steaks are being ordered?)

This isn't a "misunderstanding," it is someone purposely trying to make headlines to advance their adgenda. I call BS on that!

surfcity40

maybe you missed my tongue in cheek. my joke was it is unlikely there is a significant number of non english speaking latinos ordering philly cheesesteaks anyway.

scionofPCFL

Maybe. But if a German company wants to do business with a Chinese company, English is not necessary only that a relationship somewhere is struck. And everyone wants access to the 1.4 billion people in China, not just Americans. At the heart of all commerce is relationships (the motivation is of course money). There is no rule that says the Chinese have to do business with us.

TimmyT

English is the language of business. Just like aviation. 2 of the 3 strognest currencies in the world are held by English speaking countries. the Euro is held by many countries that speak many languages. For all international businesses English is a necessity to succeed. I garuntee you an international company is going to have english speaking reps.

Since English is the language of business both companies could communicate in engish

Tomas

Uh, guys, this is getting awfully far afield from "what path should the United States take in immigration reform?"

While these are all good, valid discussion points, the poor soul who started this topic said:
:D