HeathenBrewing

Some food for thought, in video form:

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

Notice the difference between the questions from US reporters and those of the British press.

need4speed

More anti-semite crap.

HeathenBrewing

Hows that?

Are you calling British news anti-semetic?

HeathenBrewing

Or maybe you meant that the Israeli were anti semetic? After all, the last video was shot by their own news media.

Generik420

I love how anything that disagrees with the pro-Israeli line is considered anti-semite now. Our culture has become so thin skinned that you can't even have a reasonable discussion without looking over your shoulder for fear of being accused of racism, sexism, etc.

A couple weeks ago on CNN.com there was an article about the current Israel/Lebanon conflict that just made me shake my head. The first paragraph of the article was in bold font and mentioned that a Hezbollah rocket had hit an Israeli town and described the aftermath in terms like "destroyed life". When it got to the details, there was 1 Israeli killed and 2 or 3 injured. Continue reading the same article and about 5 paragraphs down it details how an Israeli airstrike destroyed a home and killed 13 Lebanese people while they slept, 9 of them children. Nowhere in this paragraph was terms like (or even close to) "destroyed life" to be found. It was very clear that the author found 1 Israeli death more profound then 9 Lebanese children being blown up in their sleep.

Very interesting videos Heathen. It is nice to see things from a different point of view. Go read some articles about the Iraq war from BBC.com and compare them to what is available in the mainstream here.

HeathenBrewing

Yes, although I am not always in agreement with the BBC point of view, it is essential to here both sides of a story before making a decision.

When the US gives Israel over $2.4 Billion (yes, with a "B") dollars a year, the country who is the largest recipient of aid from the states since 1976, is it any wonder why there is so much world wide animosity directed towards us? And this does not take into acount all the weapons of war supplied to them by us as well, and the fact they turn around and sell these weapons to China (Israel reportedly is China's second major arms supplier, after Russia).

Stupid is as stupid does.

And that was the only point I was trying to get across by posting these vids. There are two sides to every story, and as I suspected, 90% of Americans will only tow the line that is feed to them by our mainstream media.

I dont know why I am suprised though, given the fact a recent poll showed 30% of Americans dont know the year in which 9/11 happened.

farberio

2010 right?

Even if you look at all sides of the story, whats there to do? Nothing will change in the middle east ever.

It just seems to me like this 'Holy Land' is more of a death trap.

scionofPCFL

w/o our aid to Israel (and by extension their secret service) we wouldn't have any clue whatsover what their whacko neighbors were up to. none. zip. zero. nada.

HeathenBrewing

Quite a bad investment on our part considering 9/11/01.

Oops…never mind, the U.S. was aware of the plan to fly hijacked airliners into buildings.

Still a bad investment considering they sell the weapons we supply them to our enemies.

Additionally, US law prohibits the President from providing military aid to any country that engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights” (22 USC 2304). Under the 1967 US Arms Export Control Act, it is illegal to use US weapons to carry out extra-judicial killings.

HeathenBrewing

And that is why we should mind our own business and take some of that foreign aid and fix the problems we have here at home.

Generik420

Without our unconditional support of Israel, the US may not even have a need to care what the whacko neighbors are doing. The main reason the Islamic terrorists have painted a bullseye on the US is because of our support of Israel.

My opinion, I don't care about the entire region. Both sides of the conflict have committed atrocities against one another, and I think they are both guilty of prolonging hostilities. In an alternate reality that included a world not addicted to oil, I bet all of the combat over there would be as invisible to us (US, Western civilization) as all the attrocities that are going on in Africa right now. Back to reality, I think if the US ever breaks it's addiction to foreign oil, we will be turning a blind eye to that part of the world. I just hope to see it some day.

farberio

OMG NO!! The last thing we want to do is turn a blind eye. If you honestly think the muslem extremests are going to stop with just the destruction you are dead wrong. Because if the succeed they need to find a reason to exist...and guess who is probably next inline.

If we turn a blind eye we will just repeat 9/11. The past does not repeat, its not learning lessons from the past that causes history to repeat.

HeathenBrewing

I totally agree.

The technologies exist to cut our need for foreign oil by huge amounts. We continue to put this country, ourselves and our childrens future in danger by not meeting some very basic fuel efficiency standards that Japanese auto makers have already exceeded. How is it that we can not follow their lead?

Any American company that does not head this, choosing profit over the peoples safety, can only be called one thing, UNAMERICAN.

scionofPCFL

Of course, the things they catch, that didn't happen, never made the news pre 9/11. In fact, it's a bad idea to say anything now as it shows the terrorists how they got stopped. Do you really think that the first two attempts on the towers were the only assaults that have ever been planned by these guys?

Also, if we didn't have a an IV of crude oil going directly into our streets, then we wouldn't need Israel. It wasn't our involvement with Israel that directly caused 9/11, it was our need for cheap oil. Here's a synopsis of events:

1980's: we fight communism, and Osama in Afghanistan is fighting communism. Conclusion: Osama is on our side, let's supply him with weapons and training!!!

1990': Iraq invades Quate(sp?) and our lifeline of oil is threatened by a mad man who could potentialy control 2/3 of the world's oil supply if the take over is not reversed.

Osama (our friend from the 80's) gets offeneded that we (the infedels) are fighting on what he considers Muslim holy land and begins to initiate World Trade Center Bombing 1.0.

He fails to bring them down, and goes back to the drawing board, orchestrating the horrific events that unfolded on Sept 11, 2001.

Israel is not in the picture on this timeline. And there is evidence that they tried to tip us off, however the warnings were too vauge to act on.

I forgot to add, you can thank our effed up media that thinks we have to know everything for us not knowing squat about Osama now. Back in the 90's they interviewed him, no kidding it's on film. Anyway, they happened to mention that he used those satellite phones, and then in the same sentence mentioned that we were snooping in on his conversations. He watched the episode (he's not exactly a moron) and that's how he knew how his plots kept getting foiled!!! We actually stopped him a few times once he got back on our radar, post WTC 1.0 of course.

farberio

Did you know the original 'Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' started as 'Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of estate (property).'

So I would say that going for property and wealth over human safety is pretty american. I don't think it should always be that way...but if auto companies werent paying as much in union costs they could research and develop better technologies and safety. Each car from GM includes some $1400 tack on so they can pay benifits to people that havent worked there for 25 years.

Generik420

Hey Faberio, my dad lives in Naperville, get up there about every 4-6 weeks.

Anyway. I don't want to imply the US would immediately ignore the entire region. But let's just say fuel cell technology were to become mainstreem next year, and 10 years from now 75% or more of Americans were driving cars based on this technology. I think our participation in the middle east would quickly start tapering off. It wouldn't be overnight, but without a need for the ONLY thing we want over there, I don't think Americans would stand for a large military presence there anymore. Overall, I think we would slowly get out of their business, and with less US involvement, the Islamists have less reasons to want to strike at us.

Let's be real here. The US is in this war on terror for 1 main reasons. We muck about in middle eastern affairs because they hold the keys to the oil wells and we want to make sure the tankers keep heading our way. Do you honestly think we would have given a cr@p about Iraq invading Kuwait in 1990 if we had no need for mid-east oil at that time?

I read an interesting article about 3-4 years ago where the author basically stated the US has a choice to make. As the undisputed most powerful nation to ever exist in the history of man, we can no longer play friendly with the world. Our allies are our allies because overall they fear the alternative to being on our bad side. The authors suggested that the US either had to leverage the military and economic power it has and browbeat the world into submission (not in a conquest sense), or become introverted and withdrawal from the international community. The current course the US is on according to him would be rife with countries taking pot shots at us, whether it be economically, or via covert terrorist agencies. Anyway, that was the jist of his article, and I think there were many valid arguments he made. To be honest, the idea of the US weilding it's muscle all over the world scares the sh@t out of me, but I think that is almost the direction Bush has taken us. The idea of turning in on ourselves and basically closing our doors to everyone does sound appealing in a some ways. There are so many problems that the average American has to deal with and there is no sense that anything is being done to fix it. School systems declining, infrastructure that needs to be fixed, health care, etc. Meanwhile our debt is skyrocketing funding a war in Iraq and that forgetten one in Afghanistan... ah hell, I could go on and on, but I think you should get the point. IMO, the US needs to take a step back from world events and focus on fixing our own problems instead of worrying about everyone else's. Unfortunately that isn't an option in the middle east because we need their frakkin' oil to feed all the Hummers and SUVs that everyone feels the need to drive.

That's why I traded in my F150 Supercrew last Saturday on a Scion xB. No American auto manufacturer is even close to the gas mileage that the imports are averaging. And I feel no guilt in buying a car that is 100% built in Japan if it is going to best fit my needs.

farberio

Hehe, just reading that makes me realize why some people are so dam cynical in this world.

I do agree with most of what you say, put like that I have few arguments, but just turning off all interest scares me. I mean, if we dont go around bullying places like N.Korea or the old Iraq could have obtained nuclear weapons and then come knocking down our peaceful door.

'One of the best defenses is a great offense' - Someone that was not me

farberio

And to prove my cynical point...

Well Napervilles a big place so I probably don't know him!

Although I guess I should be nice and ask where in naperland? Im located mor towards bolingbrook. (And actually I just got an apt in Geneva for work but I live in Geneva, naperland and Flint MI for school.)

Generik420

HEHE, yeah there really is no great solution to any of this.. got to find a good middle ground and unfortunately it hasn't happened yet.

He lives within walking distance of the college in the old town area. closest intersection would be Ogden and Columbia, but he is on the other side of the train tracks. LOL I drive there by rote memorization now and never really lived up there, so my street name memory is pretty poor.

farberio

Ahh, near downtown naperland. About 10-15 mins away depending on traffic.

But I still dont know him!