So we have a choice. We can either have cars that get great mileage but have lousy emissions, or cars with low emissions and crappy mileage. That sucks. I wonder how bad the emissions were on the earlier gasoline cars which got great mileage? I remember cars like the Honda CRX and the Ford Festiva. Those cars were easily getting in the 40's with gas engines. Kinda makes me wonder if the cleaner emissions today are enough to offset the steep drop in mpg's.

 

Umm...no. Not anymore anyway...

 

Sounds great to me! I didn't read any estimates of how the price of a gallon of the new ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel will compare to a gallon of gas. I mean, I'm all for protecting the environment, but if the fuel costs more it will negate any savings we might enjoy by the higher mpg's.

 

The modern diesel car is as clean, and probably cleaner than an equivalent petrol car.

The original research which led to the link between deaths and particulates is being questioned. See Merlise Clyde's paper, Model Uncertainty and Health Effect Studies for Particulate Matter, which can be downloaded from THE NATIONAL RESEARCH CENTER FOR STATISTICS AND THE ENVIRONMENT in Washington.

 

It's a combination of things, actually.

Cost of car + cost to fill tank + mpg + overall cost of ownership
versus
Cost of hybrid + cost to fill tank + mpg + overall cost of ownership

Realistically speaking, diesel engines can push fairly close to hybrids in terms of miles per gallon. Diesel right now is about 10c more than supreme gas, which is fairly pricey - but I think that's offset by the cost of the car and overall cost of ownership.

For the OCOO, you need to go to the consumer reports forums and see what they're saying about the Prius after they hit the 100K mark. Synopsis: not good. They're out of warranty and they're plagued by computer problems which cost 3.5K to repair/replace.

I mean, even now you can see that it's more cost effective to get a 5spd gen 1 xB versus a Prius. Throw a diesel engine in the mix, and the argument is heavily weighted against hybrids.

And the math doesn't really include the footprint on the environment. Some estimates have that low sulfur fuel at 97% cleaner than regular diesel. Makes you go hmm....

 

Personally, I am for higher fuel prices here in the States. $7.00/gallon is what you will pay in The Netherlands. In Greece (mainland Greece) it is just less than $4.50. Still much more expensive than here, and I am in CA where we among the nations highest prices (I just paid $3.15/gal of Shell regular).

Europe is offering America a glimpse of its future and they have long ago adapted to high prices.

 

Those are excellent points. I know what you mean. I debated about getting a Prius 3 years ago when I bought my xA. The Prius would have cost me roughly $10K more than the xA. I can drive a LONG time on $10K worth of gas! I probably won't spend that in the time I will own the car. Again, I'm all for protecting the environment...but I'm not going to throw money away either.

 

I understand that most other countries already pay more than we do (some a lot more). But I'm currious...why would you want us to pay higher prices?

 

Go test drive a 2008 Highlander Hybrid. It'll change your outlook. Wait until Toyota puts that drive-train into a Camry, Avalon or something with a little more cool-factor.

As for the drop in MPGs... they'll come back as Hybrid tech matures companies other than Toyota.

 

I can drag this out, but will just touch on this in a most basic way unless you have specifics. I dont pretend this to be a popular idea, just one that I endorse.

The most effective way to change a majority of Americans habits is to hit them in the wallet. Sure, there are other ways, but I am breaking this down to as simple of an answer as I can. Hit 'em with $5.00/gal, and they will rethink what they drive and how often they drive. They might even start walking, jogging, or riding bicycles to save some $$$.

Not only does this lessen (never will it eliminate) our dependence on foreign oil, but a side effect will (possibly) be healthier Americans. Prices for goods will rise, but not to the point of being unattainable objects for a lot of the populace. Just to the point where will have to start making decisions about what is necessary, what is important and what we do not need.

Sacrifice for the greater good.

 

How is the Highlander Hybrid system different from the Prius? I thought they were basically the same.

 

I understand exactly what you mean. It's ridiculous that we drive 8 passenger 4X4 SUV's to the mall. I personally hope it doesn't take $5 a gallon gas to cause the changes, but I certainly see your point. That probably would be the most influential factor.

 

Just want to add my opinion on the higher gas price idea.

I wouldn't mind if gas prices went up above $4/gal because it would make people rethink on how much they drive and if it's really worth it to go to that particular destination. However, a reason why Europeans can get away with high prices and not mind it is because their public transportation system is cheap and on time! Plus they can walk or bike to where they need to go (depending on how far it is) because everything is so close together.

Down here in So Cal it's impossible to get to the mall walking or bicycling or get to work/school on time using OCTA. When I started college I was adamant about getting a car because my friend had to wait 2 hours for the OCTA bus to take her to the same college thats only 15-20mins away! (I ended up driving her I felt so bad)

If the states/counties could pump up the public transportation while gas prices shot up, then more people would be willing to use public transportation. Though personally I would like to live in a city where you can walk to every place you'd need to go than drive my car.

 

i could ride my bicycle 4-5 miles one way to and from work and thats with taking a short cut too and leaves me tired to work as soon as i get there from the trek heh and that i could only do that on nice days minus hot sweaty days and freezing cold days

 

If you actually believe $5.00 gallons of gasoline is a good thing, then you do not understand the American economy. Most people cannot easily replace their vehicle everytime gasoline goes up. I commute 18 to 30 miles each way to work. I live in a rural environment that will never see public transportation because it makes no sense here. Besides which, most public transportation is for congestion, not the environment as that energy comes from somewhere. European gas prices are high to discourage driving, not to encourage conservation. Also, European streets and cities are smaller. That is why their cars tended to be smaller. Their relative efficiency was to offset the higher cost per mile to drive in Europe.

As for diesel in America, I would love to have a modern diesel powered car. However US emissions standards make owning one nearly impossible. New technologies have come along to make it somewhat possible, but it is still only on expensive cars (for example Bluetec Mercedes).

And the 80's diesels, oh boy. Oldsmobile division of GM sold a 350 CID (5.7 liter) V8 diesel in several of its, and other, model lines. It was based on an existing gasoline engine and took the place of V8 gas engines above 5 liters at GM. Until they started failing anyway. The engines had numerous cylinder head failures and often hydrolocked on their own coolant as a result of head gasket failure, causing extensive and usually complete failure of the engine. Combined with the sluggish nature of most naturally aspirated diesel engines, and the lack of a need for diesel in an environment of downsized and fuel injected automobiles, diesel engines became little more than a niche in the marketplace. If you need evidence of what I typed about the Olds diesel, it is on wikipedia.

I agree a 320 horsepower, 8 passenger SUV is not needed to go to the mall. But some people do have a legitemate need for something with more hauling/towing capacity than a car.

Im getting off of my soapbox now.

 

hmm... as far as i heard alot of diesels are coming back for 2008.

VW has been the main market for diesels in the US.... but other manufacturers i hear are trying to push their modern diesel vehicles into the states as well..

 

Good points.

True, some people do have a legitement need for a bigger vehicle. But MANY who have them don't. I used to drive a full-size Chevy Silverado 4X4 extended cab pickup. I sold it to buy the xA because I realized how silly it was for me to be driving such a big vehicle when 99% of time, the only part I was using was the driver's seat. Yes, there are a few times a year when I miss having a truck. But most of the time the xA is a much better choice.

 

What happened to the diesel? Detroit happened to the diesel. Gas lines of the 70's created a need for fuel economy "now". Detroit started offering diesel motors that were converted from gas designs. This invariably will cause engineering compromises that will result in exactly what we saw in the 80's: Slow, Smelly, and Noisy cars.

I remember selling Cumins powered dodges in the early 90's. I remember (ignorant) people coming in looking for tow vehicles and not even considering the best diesel engine on the market. They had to have gas.

Fast forward to today, and you will notice that there was only one diesel passenger car avaialbe in the US for 2007: The Mercedes Benz Blutec. Why? Low sulfur diesel is not widely available today, and the air standards being adopted by states effectively ban the sale of diesel cars that do not run on LSD. The Ecotec uses 3 or 4 very expensive filters that need to be replaced regularly to restrict emmisions. LSD passenger cars will start trickling into the market place next year.

 

DIESEL OR HYBRID

Why's it gotta be an either or question? Toyota research has focused on the synergy of an engine with an electric motor. It can be any heat exchange device, whether it runs on gas, diesel, or gum drops, it doesn't matter. In fact, Toyota originally wanted to bring the Prius to market with a diesel engine, but they saw the writting on the wall in Cali, and knew that the diesel powered Prius would have effectively been banned in Cali. BTW, that design was getting over 90mpg (real, not mythical EPA figures).

The next generation of hybrids will be of the plug in variety. Toyota has finally embraced the idea and will bring one to market. How much? I have no idea. I know that the kits to convert hybrids into plug ins are available for about $7k, so it has to be assumed that mass production will be cheaper than that....but with >200 mpg, it just might be worth it.

So what's to stop them from making a Plug-in Diesel Hybrid? Beats me, but any fool can see that it is not a matter of "if" but "when". Toyota most likely doesn't want to battle 2 American mindsets at once, so I imagine they will wait until we embrace the diesel before swapping out the gas engine with a diesel in the future.

 

*steps onto soapbox*

One look at the UK and one can see that $6.00+ for a gallon of gas is not plunging the economy into shambles.

Maybe you dont think creating massive green house gases that alter weather patterns, storm surges and regional climates will have an adverse effect on the American economy. I feel that would cause a greater economic impact than higher fuel prices. You are correct when you say higher fuel prices will create short term economic downturns, especially when we consider that most EVERYTHING we use on a daily basis comes from petroleum - the carpet you walk on, the computer you type on, the packages our food comes in - but those same high prices may well lead to new and potentially renewable sources for energy. New pathways to fuel will lead to new markets for growing industries and more jobs. Overall, the continued high price of gas may be the impetus that encourages every American to stop sipping their coffee and begin speculating about energy alternatives. The economic energy crisis of 2007 could easily lead to the energy boom of 2012.

Life is about giving up certain things to have something else. Personally, when I choose a place to live, the distance to work is always in the top 3 reasons of why I make the choices I do because I know I will have drive there and back 5 or more times per week. If you have a legitimate need for "something with more hauling/towing capacity than a car", there is a price you will have to pay. We all have choices.


The funny thing is that people act like they are totally dumb, totally blind to the future when its already written out for them. We all know oil prices will be $4 a gallon this summer just judging from what happened last year and what is currently happening in Iraq, we all know the Iran mess is going to get worse, we all know that gas is going to go up without all of this happening, and we all damn well know there is global warming. The media, like the public, is acting surprised but I think its all an act. They try to keep us dumb and it works. They try to keep everyone dumb to act like they are bringing you something newsworthy.

This morning I bought a 1 liter bottle of water for $1.49. As I type this, I am sipping a $3.95 cup (16oz cup, I believe) of specialty coffee. $4.00 for a gallon of gas is starting to look like a bargain, no?