jacman

So, this past Saturday I go out to Avondale Scion because I want to buy two new Xb's. Not one but two. I'm trading in my current Xb's for a Tourched Penny and a Black one. The deal they give me on the black one is okay and the deal that they give me on the RS4 is pure garbage. My salesman Jonathan Powell starts talking this pure pricing garbage because the dealership doesn't want to give me more for my trade-in. I thought pure pricing only worked when you were buying. This dealer ship has taken this to a whole different level. I'm talking over $2000.00 upside down. So I bought one and didn't buy the other. I'm saying this to say that the Avondale dealership is not very fair. Not that they owe me anything or something like that, but seems as if they would have cut me some slack because I was purchasing two vehicles but they didn't. I know all I had to do was walk away and looking back I wish I had. Just goes to show how greedy that dealership is. I will never do business with them again.

dagarhart

The will only give you market value for your xB. Right now I think market value is around $13,000 depending on mods, but most dealers will not consider mods. With mods it is worth more if you do a private party sale. In fact you will always get a better deal as a private party sale. It is easier to dump a vehicle on the dealer and let them do the paperwork. You will almost never get what you want out of any dealer. With pure pricing, you will not get a deal on a second vehicle. If you bought a used Scion from a dealer that has one that is not pure pricing, they will mark it up and then make it look like a deal, but in reality they are selling it to you for around the same price as the Scion dealer is. At least you know what you are paying and you do not negotiate.

YELOSUB

^^^^^Yep what he said is true...Just ask moondog, he owns 6 or 7 xB's and had to pay the pure pricing on all of them...Whether you buy 1 or you buy 6 it doesn't matter...I know it sounds like it sucks but that's how Scion does it, not just Avondale Scion...As far as your trade-in, it's always better to sell to a private party...The only benefit with a trade-in is, less hassle and the tax break...Don't let this tarnish your opinion on Avondale Scion's part, they are another great asset to the Scion community...Now go back and buy the other one you wanted...good luck!

bbcrud

I've know Jonathan Powell for a little over 4 years. You were treated fairly, with respect and 100% in-line with Pure Price and the Scion Promise.

Pure Price applies to ALL aspects of the deal. If it didn't it wouldn't work. The process is supposed to be transparent and that typically leads us to the brutal truth about the value of a trade-in.

Traditionally, a dealer has some room built into their pricing to allow them to over-allow or negotiate the trade or selling price. Pure Price, when done faithfully, does not allow for this. This means you can buy without questioning how you were treated.

It doesn't suck. It really doesn't even SEEM to suck, if you think about what the process is. If Scion was going to allow for room on the second, third or seventh unit bought, what would that mean to a family that's purchased 20 cars from a dealer over 10 years? Shouldn't their loyalty be rewarded more-so than one guy buying two cars that may never come back to you because all he's really interested in how much he saves? They pay sticker as they go, just like you did.

I'm not trying to sound too harsh here. I just want you to know you weren't mistreated.

jacman

I beleive you are posting comments from the aspect of a car sales person. You weren't there and don't know how fair or unfair I was treated. I never said it sucks. I said it was all based on greed.

Mooneyzs

Ok I don't want to sound like a Dick but if you were so unhappy with the value that they wanted to give you for your xB why did you go ahead and trade yours in and buy the one. Since stock xB's run around 14,500.00 that means that they must of offered you around 12,500.00 from you saying $2000.00 upside down. Just as everyone has said you won't get as much trading it in as you would selling it yourself.

jacman

As a consumer there are certain resources that I can use to try and get fair value for my trade; KBB, Edmunds, etc. I go to these resources and use them to get a better deal. The Xb that I was trading is a RS2 with 20,000 miles, excellent condition and no mods. Based on that the retail is $17,000 and the trade in value is around $14,000. Pure pricing only works to the dealerships advantage otherwise you would get more for your trade. Like I said before it is all about greed. Let's not pretend that this concept works to evereyone's advantage when it really doesn't. Otherwise you would get the correct value for your vehicle based on sources like KBB. The dealerships don't have trade in values posted when you walk in but they have all of the other prices posted from wheels to CIA's and they will not neogoiate price. What you see is what you pay. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here so I am done with this. I'm not really trying to bash any dealerships. I just want what is fair.

dagarhart

Actually you get for your trade exactly what a used car shop will buy it for. When I traded my car in for an xB, they were on the phone with many used car shops and they gave me the max they could give me based on what those shops are willing to give you. Most of those tools (KBB, Edmond, etc) are just tools. If you read the small print, it says something like this:

This is what you COULD expect for a trade in value. If you wanted more for your car, you should have done a Private Party sale.

I have seen where different stores could give you more for your trade. That has to do with what type of store they will sell it to and the demand for that type of vehicle on a used car lot. Which has a lot to do with the area.

I am not trying to defend Avondale, I am just trying to explain the trade in process. The only reason another dealer (not pure pricing) would give you more for your trade is when they have inflated the cost of the vehicle you are buying by the extra money (it is called a numbers game). Car dealers have been doing it for years. So they mark up the car you are buying and force you to play the numbers game giving you more for your trade so that the numbers look better to you. With pure pricing, everything is in the open. They will give you $X about for your trade and you will pay $X for your vehicle. Instead of the 4 hour dickering over how much they will give you for your trade.

Mooneyzs

The MSRP of the 2.0 was $15,620.00 and here is what I found off Kelly Blue Book.....for Trade in, Private party and suggested retail price.....Not sure but KBB gives a suggest retail price of $17,255.00 I'd like to know how that can increase when the retail price was set at $15,620.00 from Scion....

ok on another not when selling any vehicle......your car is only worth what someone is willing pay for it......if you don't believe that take a look at stuff like Barret Jackson.....I'm going to use mucles cars for example.... to one person a fixed up rod may be worth 100,000 to him and to another guy maybe only 50,000 for the same vehicle. Regardless how much time and money you put into a car.....you never get it all back when you sell it.

TRADE IN VALUE
Excellent
$13,950
Good
$13,130
Fair
$11,645

Vehicle Highlights
Mileage: 20,000
Engine: 4-Cyl. 1.5 Liter
Transmission: 5 Speed Manual
Drivetrain: FWD

Selected Equipment Change Equipment
Standard
Air Conditioning Power Door Locks Dual Front Air Bags
Power Steering Tilt Wheel ABS (4-Wheel)
Power Windows AM/FM Stereo

Optional
Release Series 2.0 MP3 (Single CD)


PRIVATE PARTY VALUE
Excellent
$15,540
Good
$14,655
Fair
$13,430

Vehicle Highlights
Mileage: 20,000
Engine: 4-Cyl. 1.5 Liter
Transmission: 5 Speed Manual
Drivetrain: FWD

Selected Equipment Change Equipment
Standard
Air Conditioning Power Door Locks Dual Front Air Bags
Power Steering Tilt Wheel ABS (4-Wheel)
Power Windows AM/FM Stereo

Optional
Release Series 2.0 MP3 (Single CD)


Sounds to me that their trade in value was somewhat reasonable to these prices

bbcrud

First of all, in my earlier post I may have come across as harsh or confrontational, that was not my intent and I am sorry if it came at you that way.

Every time someone trades a car in the dealer determines that vehicle's actual cash value- the amount they would expect to pay or get for it at auction. They must do this because, at some point, your trade-in has to represent part of the payment for the new vehicle. They usually do not show this number to the customer because it can cause one more point of conflict/negotiation. Instead, they ask you what you want for it then work toward that number based on the trade's condition, history and any known market conditions such as reputation, newer models or popularity etc.

The problem with KBB and their "dealer" numbers are that they tend to be skewed upward in many cases. Why do I say this? Have you ever known anyone that owed more on a car than it was worth and they traded it in? Typically, the dealer shows at least the pay-off as the trade allowance. Right? (Anyone jump in here if they know that it usually does not work this way)

So... now KBB buys transactional data from dealers and banks in order to generate the averages they publish. Part of those statistics are from deals where the customer was over-allowed for their trade. This means that some trade allowances went in at a higher number than the cars actual worth. This tends to make KBBs trade number a little higher than the cars real value.

The room most dealers have to negotiate the trade comes from bigger mark-ups, dealer hold-back and dealer incentives (where they apply). Scion has none of this built into the deal because, based on Pure Pricing, we're not allowed to negotiate so Toyota is not going to build that kind of room into the deal in the first place.

Pure Price IS about posted prices (selling) but the no-hassle/no-haggle portion of the Scion Promise applies to all parts of the deal, even the trade.

There is no greed here. They lost a sale because they stuck to the covenant and did things the right way. They run the risk of you going to another dealer and establishing a business relationship their. Future sales, service business and referrals are on the line. Greed would have driven them to buckle and compromise the whole deal.

bbcrud

Good answer. Especially the part about not defending those OTHER guys!

Frozenpeaz

I ran into the same thing with trying to trade my tundra for an xB, but I dont feel like its the dealers fault. Its just vehicles in general are terrible investments (but much needed).
I would be over 6k under if i traded in. So for a scion the way i want im looking at around 26k.. thats alot for any car in my opinion. Its just the way things go i guess.

dskinner

Another thing to keep in mind is that since Scion uses Pure Price strictly, and we never have things like model year end clearence sales, the vehicles hold their value much better than anyting in its class. Remeber when Consumer Reports came out with their "10 best and worst cars for depreciation" in November, the xB and xA were on the list in the #3 and #9 positions, respectfully. Scions hold their value because of a few reasons, like reliability and demand. They made this top 10 list because of the Pure Price philosophy. I, like everyone else, don't want to be harsh, but instead of being upset about the value they gave you, be thankful that you aren't 5-10k flipped in your box. Unfortunately, we Scion dealers have to explain to small car buyers all the time why they are flipped so badly.

dagarhart

To answer a potential question you might be asking. No I am not a salesman. I am a computer geek. I use to work with dealers all the time when I worked for a local fleet division of a government agency. I heard from some of the guys I worked with how some of the people that went in there lost out on their "Year end deal specials" and their 0.0% interest deals". Unless you spend hours at the dealer in the "haggle" room and you get them to where they will not budge anymore, then you are getting the same deal you would at a pure pricing dealer. In fact, had a friend that use to do sales at Autonation and they were also a salesperson for Ernhardts. Autonation use to be a pure price dealer and Ernhards was not. That person told me you might be paying about $200 mor at Autonation than you would after spending 4 hours at Ernhardts negotiating.

I have to say out of all my car purchases, my Scion deal was the best. I also did not get as much for my trade as I wanted, but that is what the market wanted to pay for my trade. But mine was only about $500 less than what I really wanted. Oh well.

IMHO - Pure Pricing rocks!!! But sometimes Pure Pricing mods is expensive. But so is any work being done at the dealership.

keoki

good thing ive never experienced anything bad on buying a car!

bbcrud

Yep.

Tundra's are a little soft. I wonder what will happen when the new Tundra is actually available in a couple weeks?

n2htwlz

Well, its the start of my 3rd week here at Avondale Scion and I was shocked to see this negative post towards us. When I read this, I needed to go find out more about the trasnaction that took place. So here is my first defense for the dealership and yes I did need to get some help on the writing of this, so here we go ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one benefits - especially Avondale Toyota/Scion - when our customer
decides not to buy a car.

We would like to clear the record. When our customer came to the store to
buy two cars, the customer owed $14,023.68 on one vehicle, and $11,856.62 on
the other (which had twice the miles).

Whether any manufacturer's dealer uses Pure Pricing or not, the Actual Cash
Value of the trade-in has nothing to do with the customer's bank payoff. If
the customer did not intend on being "upside-down," for owing $1,223.68 more
than the Bid-to-Buy, then the initial purchase should have been structured
with more downpayment. (The deal we did make on the other vehicle allowed
the customer $643.38 equity in that trade-in). This does not even account
for the sales tax benefit that is a real cash discount for the customer in
the amount of 7.8% of the trade-in.

Avondale Toyota/Scion has done everything in our power to make our
customer's deal one that is respectful, straightforward, and that sticks to
Scion's rules and covenants.

During the transaction, our Sales Manager made very clear to the customer
that we did not want to make any deal that was not 100% satisfactory to the
customer, and if there were issues, that we'd have preferred not to make the
deal. The customer chose to move forward.

We are grateful for our customer's purchase. However, if the customer is
not 100% satisfied with the deal, then owner Brian McCafferty will gladly
rescind the deal - at the customer's request - and we can each take our own
vehicles and part ways.

Best regards,



Avondale Toyota/Scion

dagarhart

Vary nicely put! Cudos to Avondale Scion!!!

I wish all dealers were like that. I know Scion dealers are, but all dealers.

xJ

I've worked for Brian McCafferty at Avondale Scion for the last 1.5 years, and whenever there's an issue or a dispute, the formula for resolution is to do the right thing - not the cheapest thing - each and every time.

I've never seen this rule broken, nor have I seen it fail...

Jonathan Powell
Sales Manager

jacman

If you go to Scion.com it tells what pure pricing is but the very last sentence is "dealers are free to set their own pricing". So it's really not a process that is written in stone. It never states anything about the trade-in process. It is a tool that is to be used when you purchase a vehicle or buy aftermarket parts. Dealers have taken that process and have included it in their deals to give you less for your trade-in.