whats really kinda funny is that if Ford files chapter 11 1st GM is going to be forced to follow. ford we be restructed and GM will be its bloated self and wont be able to compete.

 

Unions protect members from the rug getting swept out from under them by idiots running companies into the ground. Ford, GM, Chrysler - if they had their way, they would fire employees on the spot to keep themselves in the black.

Unions are people with families.

I find it disingenuous that the 'big three' failed to make a compelling product for over two decades and are now finding themselves lagging behind other companies and unions are to blame for their woes. Last I checked, unions aren't in charge of running the company and executives aren't unionized.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if people were buying American cars. They're not. When I bought my first Toyota (and even my fourth), I never said 'I want to stick it to those UAW guys in detroit' - I wanted a quality car for under 20k that will last more than five years, and looks nice. Could you get all three from an American manufactured car? No. And I'm pretty sure that a vast majority of foreign car buyers thought the same thing.

Blaming unions is a convenient way of not really addressing an ongoing problem with upper management. Here's a convenient example - the Ford family owns the Detroit Lions, whose GM is Matt Millen, recently rated the worst GM in all sports franchises. What does the Ford family do? Keep him. And extend his contract.

Not drawing a paycheck isn't a big deal either, as they have vested stock options. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both only draw $1 a year from Microsoft and Apple, respectively. The Ford family isn't starving because of his decision.

All I'm saying is, the big three dug a hole, and now they're getting buried. And they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

If you guys are familiar with Bethlehem Steel, they were a HUGE steal producer during and after the wars. They went under because of unions.

The HQ building was 10 Stories tall. Each floor has 2 janitors who’s only job was to sweep the floor. They worked 8hr shifts, and there were two shifts. that’s 4 ppl to sweep ONE floor. 40 ppl to sweep the WHOLE building. each janitor was paid $20/hr (in 1985).

8hr X $20/hr = $160 PER DAY(7 days) = $800 per WEEK(52) - $41,600 PER YEAR x 40 workers = $1,664,000 a year to have the floors swept

My dad personally knew one of these guys, lets call him Joe. Joe worked for about 45min of his 8hr shift you werent aloud to sweep the other guys ½ of the floor or go to another floor to sweep, and you cant do anything other then sweep the floor. so he came in, swept his ½ then took a nap in the broom closet for the rest of the day. Needless to say Bethlehem Steel is no more, they couldn’t stay competitive with foreign steel because they had to pay some guy $20/hr to sleep in the broom closet.

GM/Ford has to pay some guy way to much to bolt up a tire or install and armrest so they have to use inferior materials. its only a matter of time until they crash.

 

I think this is a car forum, not a political one, but regardless if there were no unions around everyone would be making wal-mart wages and the CEOs of these corporations would pocket even more. The unions may be too powerful in some cases, but everyone deserves to be paid enough money to feed their families. and another thing... I thought American cars were way cheaper than Japanese and German ones. And GM and Ford have been developing some interesting stuff recently. Both have very interesting hybrid concepts.[/quote]

Yes Unions bring the good and the bad. But the problem is the greed that we all get as time goes on because we all want more in this country. I will admit I do too. The good thing is that Toyota is paying well more then walmart.

Also the Hybrid is a great thing for any company to bring to there comsumers but Ford is using Toyota's technogly for the Escape. Hybrid Concepts are great but how often have you seen a concept actully be in production. I would have to look it up again but I thought GM had a concept but doesn't have the batteries to run the system. I think I found it on www.Autobolg.com on the hybrid concepts.

 

And the unions help support the bad.

If forcing the company to pay more even while losing money, the company fails and EVERYONE loses thier jobs.. now whose families are eating??? The same idiots run the company, only now they go down the tubes faster. The union protects no one in that case. Again, it is short sighted mentality. But thats ok, cause upper mgmt already made thier money and the union still gets its protection money from the workers since they will probably get the same type of job somewhere else... so the CEO and the union are all that make out.

 

A.P. News
Detroit
3/9/07 17:26MST

Former GM and Ford CEOs Bob Lutz and Bill Ford Jr. were arrested today on a multitude of felonies relating to a plot to detonate explosives during an up coming meeting of 130,000 former UAW employees at a convention to be held, ironically at Fords Field, in downtown Detroit.

Spokespersons for Ford said that the plan to kill off 130,000 retired union workers would’ve been the first step in resolving the companies’ economic issues, and the first bold move they’re made since adopting said slogan. When confronted about the plan Bob Lutz responded by saying, “The plan was to assess blame on AL Qaeda for the attack, say that they pulled a surprise move, coming in through the Canadian Border from the SOUTH in Windsor. Who would have seen that coming, attacking from the south coming from Canada…Then we were to blame the Canadians. I got the idea watching an episode of SouthPark.”

Former Chrysler chair Lee Iacocca and while not being involved in it, he did admit in knowing of its plans stating, “We were really hoping they’d pull it off, then I was going to rat them out, but not until we were ***** deep into an even more involved conflict in Kasmir and Iran. Then with them out of the picture I’d be the only one to make armored vehicles, and since the battle theatre is that beautiful oil utopia the Middle East I could even equip them with HEMIS, HEMIS say it say it…” Lee continued on after making me say HEMI 24 times with, “thinking about it too, I’d really cut down on US troop casualties. You see I have a few things that I think would really help out. First of all adding proper underbody armor adds a lot of weight to a vehicle and that really makes the gas mileage go to ____. Thus I’d add double the needed armor to the Durango based transporter. Secondly, if Ford is belly up who is to stop me from ripping off their designs? So the basis for an Excursion with a HEMI will finally be available. I’m planning on launching a ad campaign similar to that of the Neons campaign from when it launched. The only difference will be the print will say “Hi Mutha____er”.”
(At this point the reporter quietly snuck out of the room when Lee Iacocca ripped a chest patch out of his sweat laden button down shirt).
The FBI and homeland security have not decided whether or not to charge Iacocca for not coming forth with knowledge of the plot, but warn the public and automotive manufacturers to consider him very, very dangerous.

 

lol... what if huh?

that would be crazy..

but crazier things have been done by failing CEO's.

 

 

WOW!

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/09/a...rious-problem/
In reference to unions being a "problem" they are there to protect workers rights and to make sure the American Auto Companies don't screw them over. Y don'ot the Japanese workers have unions? well u don't need a union if the company u work for treats u fairly.
But I do agree that the american unions go too far. they _____ about and whine about keeping the work here yet where does it go, to canada and mexico. so the american auto companies can't bring over models built n sold in other countries which have better styling and fit n finish because its not built in the "United States"(apparently they think canada and mexico are apart of our country).

 

If Ford brings their European models to the US they would sell some more models.

 

^absolutely. the euro spec focus has been the hottest hatch selling in europe. all we get stuck with is some slapped together made in mexico junk that only shares its name with the euro spec one. crappy slapped together econo box or quality made high-performance pocket rocket, any they wonder why we don't buy what they sell here.

 

My take on the non union countries and companies is that they reward performance, so poor or lazy workers dont last. In turn, you have a higher performing work force and better products, thus the company can take better care of the employees. This mentality has to be followed to be successful, from both sides of it. The unions overprotect and force overly high wages for a job. This hurts the company, and in turn the worker and economy. The companies have to realize the importance of taking care of the worker, and the worker has to know the importance of doing good work and earning thier keep. But forcing it through unions just band-aids the workers situation until the company fails.

 

If some of the european american models came here, I would really try to get my hands on them.

 

^agreed. if we didn't have the communist party known as the EPA here we could of had our hand on some of those killer diesel motors. at least gm is finally starting to bring over some of its better models. the holden commodore(pontiac g8 here) and with opel n saturn basically being the same thing now were finally going to get our hands on some of those better cars, although not the best of the foreign models.

 

True

 

It's a failed philosophy for american auto manufacturers. Because of them relying on their "legacy" of cars, they are focused too much on history then the future. Of course we would all love a corvetter or shelby, but they are not economical and practical vehicles. Also, american auto manufacturers still build vehicles that are not reliable. Toyota takes 2-3 years MINIMUM of testing, durability, research, development, et cetera before releasing a new model. American manufacturers; 1-2 years of testing, durability, research and development. It is not surprise resale value sucks on them, and long-lasting becomes a dream rather then a reality.

 

this is really last months news nothin new to me

 

Saw a similar discussion today on a sportbike forum I frequent. Harley sells an image the big 4 rice rockets sell a bike. Harley HAS improved in quality over the last decade but a HD for 30k still doesn't hold a candle to a Honda cruiser at 6k. It's sad that 'merican auto makers haven't learned that you need a variety of cars to choose from rather than 8 econo-models (of the same vehicle!), a couple sport models, 9823497823497823 SUVs and a truck or two.

 

I totally agree with engifneer. Unions have hurt the airline industry much in the same way they hurt the auto industry. Airlines have crazy amounts of cost, and selling tickets at $150 round trip.

I don't know the exact figures, but I've heard it costs Ford around $38/hr average in labor to produce a car, whereas Nissan can do it for around ~$30. That's a pretty big jump when you multiply by the hundreds of thousands of cars they make each year.

Way back in '95 my father worked for Nissan in Symrna, TN. He was paid $22/hr to work on the line (Good money back in '95), provided great benefits, and had a whole wellness center that Nissan built for the employees of the plant. It was far better than the conditions seen at the union shops in MI.

Unions had their time and place, and it's gone now.