it seems to me some of you aren't even reading what this was about. toyota did not lie, they were merely using the standard of that time. The standards changed so now they had to retest their engines to the new standards, the new changes in standards gave the same engines a lower horsepower rating because now the ac and power steering etc are running, not just the engine as in the old standard.
get it????
the arguements some people are making do not make sense to this topic at all. toyota used to say a scion xA made 108 horsepower. and the engine did make 108 horsepower. Now toyota says it makes 103, and it does if the ac and power steering etc are also running. no lies just different tests. for different standards, for different years

 

so they gave us "gross horse power" with no accessories at least that answers my question from while back

its nice that there now testing "net horse power" with all the accessories

still the numbers will be the same anyways they should of gave us both numbers in the first place "net and gross hp ratings"

 

It all comes down to: if u knew that ur car (any brand/type) didn't perform up to specs (including any and all factors like mpg, hp, performance #s), would u still have purchased the car knowing what u know today? How'd u feel about and would/could u trust that company?
For me personally, none of the vehicles mentioned above have any real relevance to me since i don't own any of them. I do however feel compelled to speak out for those that do or might want to own one later down the line.
If it performs this way than document it that way. If it performs different under a different condition than state it under that condition, simple as that. I don't want the #s for last years model when I'm buying this years. Yes, i hear u on the "same motor" different condition argument, but i believe if there's any difference, than the difference should be illustrated for accuracy, honesty, and integrity purposes.
Just my $0.02 + $0.02..

 

i just don't understand why the horsepower rating includes the ac and powersteering, but not the loss due to moving parts, transmission, axles etc. It seems like it should be the horsepower of just the engine, or the horsepower at the wheels, and why does the ac even matter, who uses it more than 10% of the time?
But to the question stated above, i want to know if the car i am buying performs to specs, which is why i read ever review i can online, from experts to average people, i want to know what people get for gas milage, and what the magazines get for gas milage, and i want to know how it the engine feels, (sporty, sluggish, peppy, etc) and then i test drive the car and make my own deductions, i can even go test drive the competing cars to compare. But then again, if a company blatantly lied about something, i would be upset, but mpg varies greatly because of hundreds of factors, and horsepower is dependent on how it is tested.

 

Ok, ok....I just had to correct something in the article that was wrong.

The 3.3L V6 in the Camry was rated at 225hp and was corrected to 210hp.

It was the 3.0L V6 that was rated at 210hp and corrected to 190hp.

Sorry, I'm a numbers geek and hate to see things like that improperly stated.

Thank you....carry on.

 

Ehh, doesn't bug me at all. The engines were rated at one time using a specific system, and then re-tested a different way.

Same thing is going to happen when the EPA revises their system... people are gonna be ____ED because they'll think they were being lied to. It's not that, it's just a different (more accurate) way of testing.

I'm not less likely to buy our xB just because the HP numbers have been revised. It's the same car still. It's not like Scion took out all their 108hp engines and replaced them with 103s.

Darren, it's funny that people are slamming you for your "involvement". Sheesh

-Packy (another Darin in Portland)

 

DetNews.com sure is slow. C&D, R&D, MT, others have reported numerical lose back 3Q 2005. Toyota revised numerical performance numbers for all their 2006 models around the same time. Consumers look at bHP, enthusiast look at wHP.

 

Upset though some folks may be, the engine output hasn't changed. Both the old and the new test are accurate, and it makes logical sense that a different test would net different results. Higher or lower...what's the difference? As long as we apply the same standard to all vehicles, we get a good representation of what to expect.

 

I've had a few customers ask me about this topic and as soon as I tell them that the engines didn't change, just they way they're tested changed, they are fine with it. If someone drives a car and thinks it has enough power to do what they want to do with it, then what do the numbers even matter in the first place?

A lot of customers read in reviews of the xA/xB that they have "sluggish" acceleration, when people ask me if this is true, I tell them to drive the car for themselves and make thier own decision about it. Reviews in mags like Car & Driver or Motor Trend are great and all, but you gotta remember that these guys might have just driven the new Mercedes AMG model before road testing the xA so of course the xA is going to seem dreadfully slow. I'm not trying to make the xA/xB sound fast, but for some people the acceleration is just fine. It's never a good idea to buy (or not buy) a car based solely on its stats, drive it yourself and decide if it has enough power, or handles well, or brakes fast enough, etc.

At the end of the day, numbers are just numbers, you gotta decide for yourself based on feel what the right car for you is.

 

I couldn't have said it better.. I agree 101010%

Just like a movie critic. They bash and dog movies all the time. But i'd rather see it for myself and give my own opinion. Some jackass is not going to depict what I drive and don't drive, or what I see or don't see.

 

You just can't seem to win with most of these people, who are so pathetically uniformed.
A horsepower rating number is all the American car companies have to go on. It's been that way since day one. If you told these jerk offs that the official measurement of an 'Inch" is now twice as long as it used to be, they would come complaining to you Darren, that their D!@Ks just shrunk by 50%.

-C

 

Just start going by the torque. It didn't change, and its more meaningful anyway.

 

Torque is really meaningless as a means of comparison as all the torque in the world equates to less than one horsepower if the engine can't spin more than a few RPM. Power is, at a very fundamental level, the ability to do work. You got work, but you gotta have the ability to do it and do it fast.

Anyways, I would personally rather know what my engine makes unconstrained by anything. I like working with fundamentals and basics to build a larger and more complete 'picture' of the what is going on.

Seriously, what if a car came without AC? For instance, take an entry level KIA or something that doesn't have AC, doesn't have power steering, doesn't have any of those accessories. Is it now more powerful than the next car that comes with all that standard? It doesn't make sense to me. I want to know absolute power that the engine can make using the recommended octane (yea, I like this part of the new SAE standards) and recommended oil at the crank; at the wheel would be nice too, I'll admit.

R2D2, you have to realize that Toyota and Honda and Nissan and whoever else have been operating under the previous standards. Those standards are standards so, if you knew what those standards were, any differences from testing environment to driven environment would be handily enumerated.

So yes, different tests that allowed manufacturers to overstate HP ratings while the engine has an increased load of accessories. But all the differences were there for you; they are just different now.

 

Call me crazy, but does it strike anyone funny that the DETROIT news would release something like this? Cmon now. Detroit is a burnt out industrial town now and the big 3 are finally going up in flames with them. This is the worst piece of propaganda ive seen in the domestic auto industry thus far. Nothing like some good old fake self assurance that things will be alright and we are superior, its the American way.

whatever. Domestics are garbage.

 

Spare me the lecture.

Horsepower = (torque * RPM) / 5252

So, a million pound feet of torque, times 2 RPM, divided by 5252, would still be 380 horsepower... maybe my math isn't right but I'm pretty sure 380 is more than one...

 

You want a lecture? I'm totally not qualified to give anyone a lecture on that stuff! But I didn't mean to single you out, I meant that as a general statement...

But anyways, I exagerrated. It's still pointless to compare torque between cars. Once you work that formula out a little bit you'll see that, in order to get velocity, the torque rating splits up. Velocity ends up as a ratio of power to weight so essentially, power is the most direct way of going fast. Huh, now I understand what you meant by the lecture bit.. Sorry, but I find it difficult to explain myself in any other terms.

But there's also gearing. Gears control the amount of torque that is applied to the ground so a discussion of torque alone tells nothing until gearing is applied. Of course, power alone is nothing either but it's a more direct comparison of speed. At any rate, horsepower comparisons will tell of top speed comparisons.

And by "all the torque in the world" and "equates to less than one horsepower" I was, of course, vastly exagerrating. Anyways, if you really want a good discussion on torque and power and the futility of comparison,

click

 

I stumbled upon this article on jalopnik. When I saw Darren's name..I was like "oh schnap!" Goes to show that I'm not the forum fiend I used to be..

 

The new SAE standards DO NOT let you put premium in the engines while testing despite the engines requiring premium. Basically, every engine in the Acura linup requires premium. There are dynos on other forums of Accord V6's making 6-8 whp just by putting premium.

 

The new standard does allow testing with premium fuel, only if the manufacturer requires it. That is why the 2006 Camry V6's ratings went down more, because they had previously been rated on premium fuel. Toyota recommended premium for "improved vehicle performance", but did not require it.

By the way, why are people bashing the imports, when Toyota and Honda were the only ones that re-rated their entire line, even though it wasn't required?

 

Its not a big deal. Its just a more accurate way of testing that closed some loop holes in the old standards. Now you know that your car makes this power without doing any tricks to it. Its just like when they changed the ratings in the 70s. Its more accurate and easier to compare between models.

It passed the most important dyno out there if you bought the car. It passed the butt dyno so it felt fast enough for you then.

rbloedow is wrong. You can use any fuel you want as long as thats the one you require to the customer.