^ I think that is the problem with this community. . . the newer generation of xB2, tC2, (and lesser extent) xD, feel like everyone else is passing judgement on THEM and THEIR CARS. It creates a lot of drama, tension, and disagreement. I honestly don't understand how anyone can be SO sensitive (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular). And the fact that everyone thinks they are experts in business, sales, and the automotive industry. . . but I guess you do find that in every forum.

 

since your a newb I would not expect you to understand...they created the cars that did not appeal to their core customer base and other companies have.. so the reason was ignorance as they have not had much customer retention so actually if you like it better your part of a small group as evidenced by the sales number

 

I would chalk up more to the the enthusiast has left the building

 

I dont know what everyone wants to hate on. You all have your cars and love them. Thats great for you. Congrats! We all buy our cars cause we love them. We had a 1st gen and loved it, had to buy bigger, and now downsized back to save money on gas( honda pilot). We love our 2011 xb and wouldnt buy the first 2nd gen because of the back end. We just love it now. I did a bunch of custom and aftermarket work to it to make it our own, and it is a great car. Basically you love your car, we love ours. No reason to hate on anyone elses choice. We are all scion brethren. Show love, live aloha. Life is too damn short to fill it with negativity like this. Besides, with the cube, soul, mini, and probably 3 or 4 other very similar competitors, its only natural that numbers drop. Nissan loyalists and kia lovers will likely stay loyal to the brand. Thats how Toyota became the worlds largest car maker. Loyalty. 1st gen owners can be proud of being OG with the first box car, others can love theirs for the reasons they decided to drop the cash on theirs. Their all Toyota and all very solid cars. Much love to all my scion brethren. Aloha!

 

Toyota has fallen to #3 worldwide behind GM & VW.

 

Love your ppositivity, Wadles. No hate from me. But given your points on loyalty, what would you say is the cause for the drop in market share?

My opinion, is that the highest form of loyalty is to have the best intentions in mind, FOR the long term and BIG picture. IMO, blind loyalty is the primary cause of the collapse in GM/Ford/Chrysler quality during the late 70's and 80's. And the blind loyalty to Toyota is what is causing problems TODAY for Toyota. That kind of direction really leaves no incentive for a car company to be competitive. I love kaizen, JIT, and Toyota's innovative corporate engineering, and the last thing I want is to see them fail. They haven't failed yet, but are definitely heading in the wrong direction.

 

So true. I have to chalk it up to a shaky economy globally. China seems to be one of the very few who are not suffering too badly and they just are getting out of recovery from that quake. Japan has a ways to go yet. Here on Maui, an initiative brought a number of homeless families to live with host families for some time while recovery efforts catch up. Economically, it could be another year or even two before things get humming again. Mobile electronics and smaller consumer electronics are booming so much that I believe it will only take a year or so, but its just speculation. The marketing that Toyota splashed onto the US scene with scions inception was well timed and very clever. IMO they still do well, just not as well now that others have caught on and those marketing schemes seem to be popping up everywhere. VW is a prime example with the das auto vampaign and the whole comedic bug and such. If you recall, just after scion was born, those refreshed VWs and new models started flowing out with that new marketing. Maybe that helped them hop back in front of Toyota globally. BTW NYCxB, I think maybe you kinda missed my main point. Yes, my stats were off a bit, but it was due to scions success that they were in 1st back a couple of years ago. However, if scion had been borne of someone like Kia, or Daewoo, or even Suzuki, I can almost guarantee that the cult like following would have never happened. The faith that the average consumer has in the Toyota brand is a large part of the selling factor. Along with the styling that was keen compared to grannys corolla or camry. No hating, just a loose stereotype. The manufacturer helped a lot with scions success. Also, we can safely say that the recent recalls and scary prius publicity are hurting sales as well over the last 2 years. Couple that with a resurging ford lineup and some regained faith in GM as a whole, and you have a pretty good part of the market shifting mapped out. Its not too hard to see if you're willing to look past the opinions and hot flash fad jumping that so many of us Americans easily latch onto. The big picture is always there and history tells us a lot of what will likely happen in the future if we only take time to try and understand things instead of throwing opinions out the window like happy meals at McDonald's. Much love y'all. Its nice to chat with folks about things sometimes. My 2 and 5 year old kids cant talk economics just yet. :-) Peace to all my scion and Toyota owning friends.

 

The collapse of GM & Chrysler have more to do with the blood sucking unions then anything else.

Neither were able to compete against foreign carmakers, ie. cost $75 per hour for GM to build a car as opposed to $30 per hour for Toyota to build one.

In 2006 GM sold the most cars it had ever sold and still was unable to show a profit. They were cash poor. Socialism and Capitalism do not mix.

Toyota, taking a page out of GM, wanted the top slot and focused on quantity which harmed the one thing they were known for, quality. It saw a decrease and the market noticed.

It was never about GM's products, they turned out some great ones. Cadillac saw an expansion in its consumer base to under 55+ which is where it was for years. Bob Lutz rolled out the Pontiac Solstice and the Cadillac V16 was to debut. In the 90's there wasn't a car maker rolling out new styles better than Chrysler, from the Prowler, Viper, Crossfire, PT Cruiser, etc. which all ended when it was purchased by Mercedes, which battled the unions and finally gave up and sold Chrysler.

GM's intro of the ultimate SUV, namely the Hummer, was the only vehicle that was able to turn a profit (usually the case with all SUV's).

Non-American car companies do not have to deal with the labor issues American companies have to deal with. Want to roll out a new line, you have to throw millions at it to simply re-train the labor as per the UAW.

Then you have the decrease in consumer loyalty. This is across the board, not just for cars. From CPG like soap to clothing. What is the better deal?

The Scion brand launched itself as different. The market expected from the brand the unexpected. Granted a square box on wheels is not unique, but it certainly was not anything expected. That is where Scion fell flat, they delivered vehicles that were not "what is that?" add in the problems they faced internally and then with the current administration putting a hit on them, and you have a problem.

So, as of today, Toyota has been hit with falling quality, expected design, a hit by the economy and a hit by the Obama administration hoping to help his minions at the UAW.

To simply blame the economy is somewhat misleading. Look at Apple. Constantly turning out products that cost far more than any other company, in some cases with no viable reason (iPad) and making a killing.

Innovation, access to competitive labor, execution and back to innovation will make any company thrive regardless if you have a socialist in the White House or not.

 

Very good points NYCxB. I agree with most of them. I think comparing Apple to the auto industry or even any other industry is a but unfair. They have hit a few home runs that no other competition has ever been able to produce and that held them at the top of their markets without much concern. They combined that with very expensive marketing and also the ability to do in house tech support and software design and development. This left them with very little reliance on anyone else to do critical steps in their production. The hardware part is usually the easiest to accomplish and I think you'll agree when it comes to consumer electronics. Design and software advances are usually the most volatile and can often be hit or miss. But back to autos, GM has quite an advantage over Toyota with the sheer number of brands under its umbrella. Even with that advantage, Toyota was able to steal the top spot, even though somewhat brief, with just 3 brands to count on and one of them( scion) was just a baby. The meteoric rise could be described as a well thought out marketing campaign that was just in the right place at the right time. They weren't going to be hurting if scion were never born. They wouldve been just fine. That being said, I do agree that they have had a few quality issues that have to be eliminated in the future in order to protect the future of the reputation they worked so hard on for so long to build. Here's to hoping that they can do that. I love my Toyota and have been pushin any and all my family members into them for a long time and would like to keep that trust and loyalty going, but not if it makes a fool out of me. Hopefully Toyota sees that too. Aloha and mahalo for the good conversation. Peace.

 

NYC, I don't disagree with ANY point you made, but I want to clear up a fundamental difference, and clarify my point.

Market Share increases and decreases can happen independent of sales figures. IE, even if your sales increase, your market share can decrease. Factors that affect it are sales in total across all brands and economic factors.

Fact, sales always go up and down. But the REAL measure of winning or loosing in any business, is 1) profit, and 2) market share. As a business, GM has failed because of the Unions. Granted. However, despite being unprofitable, they still do sell cars. But the failure I was referring to was the drop in market share. . . which relates back to the current problems at Toyota.

So to sum up my points, I measure success and failure based on market share. In the 70's/80's, American manufacturers began their downturn in market share (due to brand loyalty creating odd market demand). Today, Toyota suffers from it's loyal customers, and is turning out less competitive products, and losing market share, just like GM did. Total sales are not related to this point.

Today:
Apple: sales up, market share up (win)
Iphone: sales up, android (competitor) market share up (=losing market share to android)
BMW: sales down, market share up (win)
Scion: sales down, market share down (total loss)
Hyundai: sales up, market share up (win)

Keep in mind, I'm not commenting on product superiority, but purely a company's ability to meet market demand.

 

Apple didn't increase its share through the sales of its computer hardware but by something nothing to do with making a laptop. It was called iTunes. That allowed users to organize and buy music which could easily be played on an iPod. Their aim was to get into the living room, become the center of the home and they have, over a 10 year period begun to the final step towards that. The key to their success, which is the key to any business is 3 step. Innovate, execute, innovate.

As for GM's huge stable of brands vs Toyota's. There was nothing different at a Pontiac dealership that couldn't be found at a Chevy dealership. Since the gas crisis of 73, GM used Chevy engines in Pontiacs (these 2 brands had different followings in the 60's), etc. Basically GM became one big parts bin with 6-7 different labels.

Toyota's knocking off Mercedes (Lexus), that is where big profit comes from. GM had 2 lost decades of no luxury brand as Caddy attracted 55+. That is not a demo to success and market futures.

Toyota, a brand I never considered with the exception of the xB, came in cheaper and targeted say the once market dominant Ford Taurus with their Camry and eventually took that over.

Speaking to sales up and market share, etc. Some brands have no where to go but up or down. Apple created the advanced smartphone segment. Theirs is both software and hardware. This can not be separated. They dominated via a single carrier (ATT). With the expansion of a deal with Verizon now and the possible buyout of T-Mobile by ATT Android has peaked and is losing share, not gaining share. Furthermore, developers are abandoning Android as it makes sense for them to create for the iOS which covers 2 devices (iPhone and iPad).

Hyundai, in their push to sell are sacrificing their dealers who are not turning a profit. Or should I say are earning the lowest in the business and that includes more than half of what Ford or Chrysler dealers make in service and parts (Ford dealers see 85% covered by Ford for service and parts, Hyundai dealers might see as much as 40% covered). This will become a problem that allows the consumer to be exposed to shoddy service because the dealer is trying to turn a profit on service and quality service won't lead to that. So I see that as a ticking time bomb, besides in the 1980's Hyundai saw sales in a downturn, they were selling a car for $4,995 when new cars were double that. They are, for the most part, a bad economy car and as soon as the economy gets better or we see a dramatically new President in 2012, Hyundai will be associated with hard times and consumers will look to buying established brands.

GM still is the #1 car company in the world. They are still not turning a profit and won't as long as they try to exist with their labor issues. Their one plus is the love for Buick in China, which baffling as that sounds, will also be an issue as China is seeking imitate and at some point that huge market will sink GM.

Chrysler, which has lost the taxpayer over $1.3 Billion, has been handed to a foreign company (FIAT), while Sergio Marchionne is a brilliant man, and will turn Chrysler around, the US government handed them the company for nothing. Deplorable.

Ford, while they didn't take any TARP, they are having issues, cash issues are around the corner for them unless the economy gets better.

VW is the new #2 worldwide, behind GM.

Market share is extremely important, but profit is key. GM functions on market share (quantity) to deal with their labor issues. Honda targets profit.

Bottom line and back to Scion. Scion was a forward thinking brand that was ready to mix it up, take the current technology or should I say the current wants, put it in the car and make it the new gathering place. Not since the 1970's vans where people put in beds, tables, customized the heck out of those things did that happen until Scion came online. Really, a TV in the cargo area? The amount of money spent on aftermarket for the Scion certainly exceeded any other brand. It was a brand that polarized (you either loved it full on or hated it full on) and then it became you.

The new xB, when it came out looked like a VW and a Hyundai got it on and birthed it. It looked like something else. Whereas the original models looked, I should say the xB1, looked like nothing else (well actually a Chevy Astro, but...)

 

At the very least, the marketing folks should be asking existing owners of Scion vehicles some questions: Will their next vehicle be a Scion, and why or why not...

Leave us some room to answer around the questions to get an understanding of their market.

My answer would be no, it will not be a Scion, because neither Scion, Toyota, nor Lexus has a utility city car (Urban Utility Vehicle - UUV) like the original xB/bB and the current bB in the US market. I would also add that I really wish it could be a Scion because of the dealership purchase experience as opposed to others (including Toyota), and my experience with Toyota made products over the years.

I'm willing to buy, they just have to have something I WANT to buy. If nothing changes I may have to invest in a hamster suit...

 

My local dealership hasn't had any scions, period, for the last three months. They said they've had people ask about the TC, but won't have any until Aug. They had one used '08 TC on the lot last time I was there. Otherwise, nada.

 

They need to release the bB that the rest of the world has :/ I've even started taking a look at what it may take to import one, hah

 

The only legal way to import one is as a show car or test car. You will not be able to register or license it for normal public road use. It is not on the NHTSA list of importable vehicles, nor does it meet any of the exceptions that would allow you to import it and use it on American roads.

Worldwide, the current Toyota bB (and it's nearly identical sisters coming off the same production line, the Daihatsu Materia, Daihatsu COO, and Subaru DEX) is available in both left and right hand drive, in versions that would likely meet all US requirements except for federal testing.

Toyota could bring it into the US with very little additional investment, and I feel that in today's market they would sell. I'd love to see it as a Scion - I like the dealer experience better than the others - but I'd take it in any of it's brand names.

Importing one as an individual, however, is not something that can be done if one plans to license it to drive as an everyday vehicle.

 

I bought my xb2 because it was wrecked...I could fix it, and it cost me $5300 bucks. You could never get me to buy a new car. I mean, honestly, new car prices are ridiculous. I'll be driving private party used cars until I die.

Hopefully the ft-86 can jump start the scion market as a fairly powerful, rwd coupe that caters to performance enthusiasts.

 

That's what I had mostly gathered, unfortunately. Thanks for putting all that together in one nice little post! I would absolutely kill for one of those things, I wish the US wasn't so stubborn about their silly importation restrictions... If they ever go on sale, I will be the first to throw down a pre-order. Lol

 

You could import one, swap vins with a salvaged xB, and claim you modified it and did a JDM conversion? Not exactly legal, though...

 

Yeah, that's a lot of work and I'd rather not have someone find out and instantly lose my car Plus I live in Colorado, might be different if I was in CA and could just pick it up then garage it.

 

Seem that based upon a dismal product line and bloated pricing (tC in particular), sales couldn't be worse and this problem began long before the tragedy in Japan. Wonder if the Scion brand will survival at all.