09TC5M

I was speaking of both domestic and foreign. I would agree though, that modern engines are more of a PITA. I asked for dyno proof when I called crower and it didnt seem like they had any or if they did they wouldn't release it.

yamaha16bw

Thanks for the info TCpete.

TCpete

your welcome man =) anytime...

and 09TC ...and have u wondered whyyyyyyyyyy they havent posted the info and those cams have been released now for months now... hmmmmm i wonder why.

purevision01

The cams from brian crower are only popular bcuz there isnt another cam currently on the market... When kelford makes a cam, we will really see a big difference... as for the vvti in the tc... This cam timing system adjusts the intake cam position relative to the exhaust cam and crank and does nothing else... The idea behind an after market cam for this type of car is to increase the lobe profile (lift) and duration... Regardless of vvti or not on an na application keeping the valves open as long as possible without the piston pushin the intake charge back out, so goes for the exhaust cam... This is where the motor becomes for efficient...

tumuneco

watching

09TC5M

I think this dicussion could go on forever. I think it comes down to getting actual dyno numbers from Crower or someone that has the cams untuned, until then its all theory. Fluid dynamics as well as general physics would say that a well designed cam will make power, but it only works if the auxillary components are capable. In this case we may have a really limited ECU that may not know how to make the proper adjustments.

I agree that another manufacturer may be able to research the issue with the stock ecu and produce a cam that will make a good deal of power. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

2fast4you

I wouldn't... you're just setting yourself up for more disappointment. I've been waiting since 2006 to read numbers on cams and intake manifolds for N/A and no one has produced... not a single manufacturer or company. Why is that? It's not like they lack the resources... hell, I've offered my tC and MONEY to Brian Crower to produce N/A numbers, but no response. I suspect the reason is because they can't produce any appreciable number and are relying on nothing but hype to sale there products to the uneducated here on SL.

I've spoken with professional racers, and every one of them has told me cams offer no benefit to a N/A 2AZ, so far they haven't been proven wrong.

TCpete

exactly what ive been trying to say to everyone here.... me being one of the few who have actually taken the NA route on the tc and know how it works and have been successful with my measly budget build lol.... BUT NAAAAAH who deh hellz iz dis tcpetesorz dude talkniz bout! ... lol....

purevision01

I think a well designed cam with the addition of a ported head and higher flowing intake manifold would net some significant gains... If a k24 engine can make 230+ whp and the only real difference between our engine and that is the head. Logic stands that if you create a head that flowed similar numbers the hp and tq should be about equal... Granted the hp and tq curves would be different but im sure a high hp na 2az motor is possible without going crazy with the compression.... and if you bump up the compression and rev that thing to 9k im sure itll make some good numbers. But it really comes down to how much money are you looking to spend.

davedavetC

iTrader: (4)

youre comparing apples to oranges.

a K24 makes that much power NA because it was designed to. again it also has iV-Tec aka LIFT so yea cams would help i guess. the tC doesnt so its useless a P&P job would be where you would see the increase in HP and you would have to do a LOT of work to get this engine (2az) to rev to 9k haha and you would have to go crazy with the compression and tuning (not to mention other mods) to make big NA HP.

if i were someone that wanted to waste my money on these cams i would listen to pete, hes done his homework and knows what hes talking about.

kungpaosamuraiii

K24...

If we're talking about anything other than the TSX engine then it does not have lift. I haven't looked at Honda engines for a long time but I think the only K24 variant worth noting is the K24A2? All the other ones for Accord, CR-V, whatever else, is almost the same as the 2AZ.

TCpete

FALSE IN SOME SENSE...

a ported head will get you some more power pending proper tuning..

an intake manifold designed with a larger volume area and LONG runners NOT SHORT will get you some more power...

a 2az motor WITH OUT high compression pistons making alot of power is almost impossible... you will need to increase in volume in L and increase the stroke if you dont plan on raising the compression... this is WHY ppl run larger compression pistons in the first place so they do not have to increase the stroke and L volume of the motor to make power.

YOU DO NOT need to rev to 9k rpms to make power either... this is why the 2az and the K series are 2 completely different motors... Honda relies on short stroke and higher compression to REV high and thats where they make power which is why their TQ is low... pls refer to ANY honda b,d,h,k series motor thats uses short stroke, small displacement (L) as a refrence. even the k24 series which are the TQ ones only increase stroke by a minimum but still maintain a decent rev at an average of 8k-8500... but they are the onl exception because they are on bigger cars that need some more TQ to get up and go. BUT their TQ curves are still typical honda design and do not match up with the whp.

TOYOTA uses a different approach in the 2az in which they use a higher displacement, lower compression, but longer stroke and lower rev to make power. basically the complete opposite of honda... the more stroke u have and the higher compression the more TQ and HP u are going to make... think of it this way.. stroke = TQ and HP = compression...

K series compression overview:
K20A

Bore is 86 mm (3.39 in) & Stroke is 86 mm (3.39 in) for all of the K20 engines.

* Found in:

*
o 2007- Honda Civic Type-R (FD2)
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 11.7:1
+ Power: 222 bhp (225 PS, 165 kW) @ 8000 rpm
+ Torque: 158 ft·lbf (215 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
+ Redline: 8600 rpm
o 2001-2006 Honda Civic Type-R (EP3)
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 11.5:1
+ Power: 212 bhp (218 PS, 158 kW) @ 8000 rpm
+ Torque: 149 ft·lbf (202 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
+ Redline: 8600 rpm
o 2001-2007 Honda Integra Type-R (DC5)
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 11.5:1
+ Power: 217 bhp (220 PS, 162 kW) @ 8000 rpm
+ Torque: 152 ft·lbf (206 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
+ Redline: 8600 rpm
+ I-VTEC Engagement: 6200rpm
o 2003-2007 Honda Accord Euro-R
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 11.5:1
+ Power: 217 bhp (220 PS, 162 kW) @ 8000 rpm
+ Torque: 152 f·lbf (206 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
+ Redline: 8800 rpm

K20A2

* Found in:
o 2002-2004 Acura RSX Type-S and 2002-2005 Honda Civic Type R (EP3, European)
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 11.0:1
+ Power: 200 ps/198 hp (148 kW) @ 7800rpm
+ Torque: 142ft·lbf (193N·m) @ 5600rpm
+ Redline: 7900pm

K20A3

* Found In
o 2002-2005 Honda Civic Si
o 2002-2004 Acura RSX
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 9.8:1
+ Power: 160(120 kW) @ 6500 rpm
+ Torque: 142 lb·ft (193 N·m)* (191 N·m) @ 4000 rpm
+ Redline: 6800 rpm
+ (Horsepower and torque calculations reflect new SAE J1349 procedures revised August 2004)
* (The intake manifold is often credited with being responsible for the difference in HP between these two variants. The Civic Si being equipped with an aluminium intake manifold, and the RSX Base model equipped with a plastic version.

K20A4

* Found in:
o 2003-2005 Honda Accord (UC1)
o 2006-2008 Honda Accord (UC3)
o 2001-2007 Honda CR-V (RD5)
o 2000-2003 Honda Stream (RN1)
o 2004-2007 Honda Stream (RN3)

K20Z1

* Found in:
o 2005-2006 Acura RSX-S
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 11.0:1
+ Power: 201 hp (154 kW) @ 7800 rpm (SAE net J1349 Rev 8/04)
+ Torque: 143 ft·lbf (194 N·m) @ 7000 rpm (SAE net J1349 Rev 8/04)
+ Redline: 8300 rpm

K20Z2

* Found in:
o 2006- Acura CSX (Canada)
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 9.6:1
+ Power: 155 hp (114 kW) @ 6000 rpm (SAE net J1349 Rev 8/04)
+ Torque: 139 ft·lbf (188 N·m) @ 4500 rpm / 188 N·m @ 4200 rpm (Singapore)
+ Redline: 6800 rpm
o 2006- Honda Civic (JDM)
+ Displacement: 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression: 9.6:1
+ Power: 155 hp (114 kW) @ 6000 rpm
+ Torque: 139 ft·lbf (188 N·m) @ 4500 rpm
+ Redline: 6800 rpm
o 2006- Honda Accord Sport(Europe)
+ Displacement: 1998 cc
+ Compression: 9.6:1
+ Power: 155 hp (114 kW) @ 6000 rpm
+ Torque: 139 ft·lbf (188 N·m) @ 4500 rpm
+ Redline: 6800 rpm

K20Z3

This inline-4 cylinder internal combustion engine is found in the US market Honda Civic Si (2006+) & Canadian market Acura CSX Type-S. It has an aluminium block with an aluminium head, and a bore and stroke of 86 mm x 86 mm, resulting in a 2.0 Liter displacement.

* Found in:
o 2006-2008 Honda Civic Si (FG2 - Coupe & FA5 - Sedan), 2007 Acura CSX Type-S
+ Displacement : 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression : 11.0:1
+ Power: 197 bhp (147 kW) @ 7800 rpm (sae NET Rev 8/04)
+ Torque: 139 ft·lbf (189 N·m) @ 6200 rpm (sae NET Rev 8/04)
+ Redline: 8000 rpm
+ i-VTEC Engagement Window:5800 RPM

K20Z4

This inline-4 cylinder internal combustion engine is found in the redesigned Honda Civic Type-R (FN2). It has an aluminium block with an aluminium head, and a bore and stroke of 86 mm*86 mm, resulting in a 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in) displacement.

* Found in:
o 2007 Honda Civic Type-R (FN2) (Europe Market)
+ Displacement : 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)
+ Compression : 11.0:1
+ Power: 198 bhp (201 PS, 148 kW) @ 7600 rpm
+ Torque: 142 ft·lbf (193 N·m) @ 5600 rpm
+ Redline: 8500 rpm
+ 16V DOHC i-VTEC changes from low speed cams to high speed cams at 5,200 RPM



K23A1

* Turbocharged
* Found in:
o 2007/2008 Acura RDX
+ Displacement: 2,300 cc (140.4 cu in) (acura.com)
+ Compression: 8.8:1 (acura.com)
+ Power: 240 hp (179 kW) @ 6000 rpm (SAE net)
+ Torque: 260 lb·ft (353 N·m) @ 4500 rpm (SAE net)
+ Redline: 6800 rpm (acura.com)
+ Bore: 86 mm
+ Stroke: 99 mm


K24A1

* Found in:
o 2002-2006 Honda CR-V
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43x3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 9.6:1
+ Power: 160 hp (120 kW) @ 6000 rpm
+ Torque: 162ft·lbf (220 N·m) @ 3600 rpm
+ Redline: 6500 rpm

K24A2

* Found in:
o 2004-2008 Acura TSX
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43x3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 10.5:1
+ Power: 200 hp (147 kW) @ 6800 rpm (2004-2005)
+ Power: 205 hp (150 kW) @ 6800 rpm (2006-2007) *SAE Net Rev 8/04
+ Torque: 166 ft·lbf (225 N·m) @ 4500 rpm (2004-2005)
+ Torque: 164 ft·lbf (222 N·m) @ 4500 rpm (2006-2007)*SAE Net Rev 8/04
+ VTEC Engagement: 6000 RPM
+ Redline: 7100 rpm

K24A3

* Found in:
o 2003-2007 Honda Accord (Europe(EDM)) and Japan(JDM)) and 2003-2007 Honda Accord Euro CL9 (Australia)
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 10.5:1
+ Power: 189 hp (140 kW) @ 6800 rpm
+ Torque: 164.5 ft·lbf (223 N·m) @ 4500 rpm
+ VTEC Engagement: 6000rpm
+ Redline: 7400 rpm

K24A4

* Found in:
o 2003-2005 Honda Accord, 2003-2006 Honda Element
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 9.7:1
+ Power: 160 hp (119 kW) @ 5500 rpm (166 hp in 2007/200
+ Torque: 161 ft·lbf (218 N·m) @ 4500 rpm (@4000 rpm in 2007/200
+ Redline: 6800 rpm

K24A8

* Found in:
o 2006-2007 Honda Accord
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 9.7:1
+ Power: 166 hp (124 kW) @ 6000 rpm
+ Torque: 160 lb·ft (217 N·m) @ 4000 rpm
+ Redline: 6500 rpm
o 2007-2008 Honda Element
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 9.7:1
+ Power: 166 hp @ 5800 rpm
+ Torque: 161 lb·ft (218 N·m) @ 4000 rpm
+ Redline: 6800 rpm

K24Z1

* Found in:
o 2007-2008 Honda CR-V
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 9.7:1
+ Power: 166 hp @ 5800 rpm
+ Torque: 161 ft·lbf @ 4200 rpm
+ Redline: 6500 rpm

K24Z2

* Found in:
o 2008 Honda Accord LX/LX-P trim models
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 10.5:1
+ Power: 177 @ 6500 rpm
+ Torque: 161 ft·lbf @ 4300 rpm
+ Redline: 6800 rpm

K24Z3

* Found in:
o 2008 Honda Accord LX-S/EX/EX-L trim models
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 10.5:1
+ Power: 190 @ 7000 rpm
+ Torque: 162 ft·lbf @ 4400 rpm
+ Redline: 7100 rpm

* Found in:
o 2009 Acura TSX
+ Displacement: 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in)
+ Bore and Stroke: 87 mm x 99 mm (3.43 x 3.90 inches)
+ Compression: 11.0:1
+ Power: 201 @ 7000 rpm
+ Torque: 172 ft·lbf (MT), 170 ft·lbf (AT) @ 4300 rpm
+ Redline: 7100 rpmThe

NOW YOU TELL ME FROM THE ABOVE... notice the patterns in stroke vs compression and which motors make TQ and which dont....

you are comparing apples to oranges my friend and you need to realize where and how the 2az falls in its equation of stroke,displacement, and compression...

if you want the full scheme of both 05-06 and 07+ up motors i will be more then happy to pull them up.. but being on scion forum you should know what the are.....

im sorry.. K series honda motors use lift also my friend... basically what K series does is the same as vvti... variable timing and valve overlap.. BUTTTTT they also use their patented lift technology which is the normal cross over from the wussy lobe to the aggressive love.. like normal vtec

explained here

http://asia.vtec.net/article/k20a/



ANYONE ELSE WANA TANGO???

purevision01

Everyone has proven my point but does not get my point... A motor is a motor weather its built by honda or toyota or chevy or my me... They all do the same thing, draw air to convert chemical potential energy into work. With that said, if you create an enviroment in a head where at a point or series of points where the the motors of similar displacement flow a similar amount of gas volume (gas as in whatever gas vaper along with o2 and other atmospheric components) and similar compression ratio with similar air fuel ratios you will net a similar horsepower. Whether its vtec, ivtec, vvti, ecotec, mivec or no cam/lift adjustments made... If at certain point the cars will make the same power... The cam and lift adjustments are present to either allow the car to make power without a crappy idle or crappy driveability of a high profile high over lap static cam. Now the 2az for sure does not adjust lift or duration of the valves but it does advance the timing on the intake cam... all fine and dandy... The new xa's have dual vvti meaning they adjust on the intake and exhaust cams (getting close to vtec but not quite). Now you take the highest hp output honda kseries head coupled with a block of similar displacement and compression and create a fuel/ignition map to create favorable a/f ratios for an NA motor designed for high hp output and your hp out put will be nearly identical... Your difference will be where the hp occurs in the motors power band and the torque figures.

Plenty of other figures that go into the power characteristics of a motor besides what i listed above, such as recipricating mass, valve design, injector spray patters, fuel pressure, octane ratings, spark plug temp, oil viscosity, compression ring location and so on...

What I am saying if one has the money, desire, and patience, one could build a high hp output motor and not run ridiculous compression. and IMO 11.0-1 is not high by any means when looking at compressions that force induced motors are seeing on pump gas. Anyway I digress. You build a motor with similar volume flow in and out with similar compression and similar afr you will get similar hp but may be dissimilar tq. thats all im saying. Might be alot of money and the end product WILL have a crappy idle and crappy driveability due to its massive overlap but when floored the car will pull.

TCpete

break off tangent much? ^^

i would love to watch you build a low compression , small stroke, high revving, high hp an tq NA motor with ported holes the size of golf ***** and no consideration for timing/fuel or how each variable of configuration of a motor compliments or un compliments the next step.... just wow ...

purevision01

Im not so sure you are pickin up what im putting down... I didnt say low compression small stroke anything... I said show me an engine from company of similar displacement and compression and I can get a 2az motor to produce the same hp... It probably wont be streetable and probably wont idle nice either but it will make the number and thats it. The use of any kind of valve timing duration or lift control will be negated by a static change to the physical characteristics of the cam... So when either engine enters its power band the hp will be nearly the same however the torque numbers will be different... If a head has a peak flow 300cfm with vtec or with vvti or no timing control at all, with all other aspects equal that flow will produce the same hp.

1vicissitude

Gude makes a cam set for the 2azfe. They offer a ported head, cams, ported throttle body, and drivetrain. Thier cams require you to change your springs and retainers. I emailed them and they said to expect a 45hp increase n/a. Didnt specify at the wheels or not. All together thier setup runs around $1700 which includes all that I listed.

TCpete

LOL ^^^ no proof... i call BS just like what i highlighted above in red...

2fast4you

O.K. I'll put this out in public before I e-mail Gude:

I have a stock motor tC sitting in Canoga Park, CA. I will have someone drive it to their office in Lake Elsinore and if they can produce 45 hp with the package you described above, crank or wheels, I'll buy the package, post the dyno sheet and video here on SL, run two big-___ Gude Performance vinyls on the windshield and rear window for a year, AND pay them an additional $1000 dollars. If they can't, they get to return my motor back to stock, publicly apologize for voiding my warranty, and I get to post a big "I told you so" all over the Scion community.

There you go folks... discuss.

TCpete

DANG!! BALL BUSTER CALL OUT RIGHT THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^^^^ thats how big boys do it! thank you come again!

purevision01

I'd welcome the task but im sure my package is not bolt on and im positive its not going to only cost a $1000 in labor lol...