And this is exactly my point (not an attack on you metro, but the point I was making). A GOOD tech should be able to troubleshoot the issue regardless of what aftermarket or dealer offered parts are on the car. Sure, they are going to charge you labor if the issue is caused by an aftermarket part.. but they should have the know how to troubleshoot it either way. And a good mechanic can and does do this on a daily basis. I just get irked at the dealers with their "highly trained" guys that can only swap parts out till the problem is fixed and only do it on exactly the vehicles they were trained on... and then only if they have a manual to go off of. And then the customer pays more labor than they would at a good private mechanic, if they are not under warranty of course. Its sad really.

 

The problem with some techs is that we don't get paid crap on warranty repair work. What happens in that case is that it gets kicked back to an apprentice tech, who gets paid hourly, to look for the problem or problems. He can't find the problem cause they don't what they are doing, so guess what...they put on the repair order...NPF! (No problem found)
Unfortunately, that's what happens at most dealerships, and yes!...it sucks!

 

I don't know what the Lemon Laws are in your State. Once you "prove" the issue in PA, after the 3rd attempt to fix it unsuccessfully, you can request that it be replaced, or money back.

Not a fun option, but one to consider. Perhaps the techs that built your car were working on a Friday...

 

Its the same in VA. Had a guy here do it. Has to have been in UNDER WARRANTY for 3 times for the same issue.

 

my car stalls once in awhile on cold start..i hope theres nothing wrong with my car...

 

^^there prob. is...

Nick - I never thought those things worked....

 

checked the battery on bf's tip
battery is bad so will change that out and see how it goes

 

Can't believe I am seeing this post..

won't comment on the retarded earlier posts about techs. Long story long. I had the same problem, and car was left at more than one dealership (NY and CT)..for days/weeks at a time. Dealership could reproduce the problem you are having..car left 4+ hours untouched would stumble on first start.

And yes, I have an AT, and yes a dealer installed S/C. Interesting that the other guy here has the issue as well. I tracked down a manual transmission in Texas with the same problem..those techs replaced his entire s/c and he still has the problem.

At first dealership said they could not warranty, then TRD said they had to. Then TRD said "maybe his aftermarket stereo" is the problem..yeah ok. Between the 2 dealerships, and taking to 2 mechanics on my own this is what was done.

NO CODES EVER
Flash - confirmed
Compression - 3 good cylinders, 1 a little high
ECU - replaced & reflashed
MAF Sensor - replaced
spark plugs - checked
throttlebody - cleaned & replaced
battery - replaced
sensors - checked

dealership told me they could not work on the vehicle anymore unless stereo was removed. sent a letter to scion corp and got no response.

By the way, dealership did not do the compression test, my thrid party mechanic did. Dealership saw fit to take the whack-a-mole approach to troubleshooting by swapping parts, starting first with the most expensive (the ECU)..not on my dime. Anyway, when compression was a little high, I remember asking the tech what might cause that..he said he didn;t know...maybe the cat? I shrugged it off.

oh, and if you read this far..there may be light at the end of the tunnel for you. After 5 agonizing months...guess what, I finally blew a code ... a P0420...cat coverter failure....right. on a car with only 24k miles..absolutely ridiculous.
third party tech was right.

There happens to be a TSB on the cats on an unrelated issue. So the cats are weak to begin with.

Cat coverter was replaced under warranty...thats an EPA thing. Hard cold start has not happened since.

At the end of the day this type of issue needs a diligent service tech with access to a computer . Most monkeys in the shop are good at changing oil or following the standard troubleshooting guides available from the manufacturer. Problem is, this is an aftermarket part that had limited R&D, nil training and non-existent support. So it's hard to fault the techs when they are ill equipped to troubleshoot such a complicated device. Yeah you can call it Toyota/TRD all day long but they didn't build it, they just license the technology..then print out a 40 page b/w booklet and expect the guy that changes your spark plugs to install and service the machinery.

I can only hypothesize that the rich map from TRD (and ATs get an extra flash...for extra conservatism), ethanol, S/C and weak cat make for a cat killing combination. But what do I know...at least I am not alone.

Good luck with yours. I would like for you to PM me with your name, tel # and VIN, and the CT person as well. I will use this to send a collective letter to the dismissive staff at TRD about this. I am also going to a scion event this weekend, so perhaps I can speak to a rep about getting to the right person who will listen. I am somewhat glad to hear this is not an isolated case. If I can be of any help with VIN or work order numbers that would assist the grease monkeys working on your case, let me know. I imagine they should be able to pull up the records or at least make contacts with the shmos that "worked" on my car.

 

for some reason this is screaming in my mind a bad battery or alternator on the way out...

 

jetlounge - which scion event will u be at? the PA thing??

 

no, englishtown

 

dang it we could have spoken face to face, after i switch battery out i'll PM you

thanks for the input

 

jetlounge:

Just because you throw a P0420 cat code doesn't mean the cat is bad, it can be a bad o2 sensor causing the ecu to think it is bad. If your cat was beginning to clog and build up back pressure, that would have not changed your compression readings (unless you were doing a running compression test). The reason you had one that was a little high was probably due to carbon build-up (you said it yourself that the reflash is extremely rich). I don't see how replacing your cat fixed your cold start issue, but whatev... If your cat was bad, you would have back pressure, causing you to have low/no power, and it wouldn't be able to get out of its own way. I could go on, but whats the point.

tc4italy:

Have they checked to see if fuel pressure bleeds off over night?? Have they tested the injectors?? It wouldn't be a fouled spark plug, that would be noticeable after startup.

How many miles do you have on your car? Did they test for both good pump pressure and volume? You obviously have all the necessities to start (i.e. air, fuel, spark, compression) and I highly doubt you have a crank sensor fall out only on starts... I would definitely check the fuel issue as I said. The can flow test the injectors (if there is an injector with 1.5psi or more difference than the average then it is bad). Test pressure after initial key on. Test running fuel pressure.

If none of those seem to be an issue, then the only other things I could see it being would be either the maf being a little dirty, yet that would cause drivability issues you would think, or maybe something to do with the reflash. Hope you get it figured out!

Again, I don't believe it is your cat, as I stated earlier.

And with all of the technician comments, no one has respect for us technicians in the industry. Not all of us are bad, but those who are ruin it for everyone else. I don't know how many times I have heard, "oh yeah, these do this all the time, needs such and such part." That is what I call shotgun diagnosis (got it from my teach lol).

I hate how we are known as grease monkey's, part replacers, yada yada yada.... I know I like to check all possibilities until I know the part I diagnosed to be bad is actually it.

Oh, and a weak battery will cause a slow crank issue, but wouldn't make your car stall and die like that, but you can always try it :D.

 

I still am on the track of a fuel or ignition issue. A bad crankshaft position sensor could cause something close to this, but if it runs fine after that it probably isnt the issue.

I dont see a CAT causing this sort of issue, nor an O2 issue.

I would be curious to see what sort of fuel pressure it has after you turn the key on, but not start the car. I would be leaning towards the pump having issues. I have seen fuel pumps do some strange things, yet work fine once they warm up (and vice versa). If it is running out of fuel shortly after starting, it most likely would not set a code, since the issue is not there long enough to set a code.

And I agree with the bad ones causing a bad name. My dad deals with that mentality all the time.. at least until he works on thier car, fixes it, charges less labor than the dealers and gets a new customer for life But unfortunately the good ones have to prove themselves outright due to the parts replacers out there.

In any case, if possible it would be nice to see if they do check your fuel pressure at start up. But they would have to do it when the problem was ocurring of course!

 

im so confused right now....
anyway i'll switch battery out this week and see how that goes, hopefully i dont also have to deal with injectors and fuel and other crap, i have my plate full.

 

IF the battery starts the car ok, I would say thre is a 99.999999999% chance that it is NOT the culprit.

 

huh?

 

If the car starts fine, the battery is fine. The battery is what starts the vehicle. The alternator is where the rest of the power comes from (to recharge the battery, to run the electronics on the car, etc). The battery isn't really needed once the engine turns over.

If it's stalling during the first start of the day when the vehicle has been sitting overnight, have the dealer check the throttle body. Since the electronic throttle body doesn't have the usual culprit (idle speed control valve), the throttle body itself may be out of whack. Since it's electronic, it adjusts itself slightly to stay alive. So either the motor is getting lazy for all the minor adjusts during a cold start or one of the sensors is out of whack making the throttle body think it's doing the job correctly when it's obviously not.

It's hard to find the actual problem w/o taking a thorough look through the system.

-----------

Or the easiest question:

Which intake are you using and, if it's reuseable, did you ever clean it w/ the "soap and filter oil" kit?

If you put too much "filter oil" on the reuseable one, it will clog the air flow sensor and cause this type of problem. The last time I cleaned my K&N was over 2 years ago and I didn't get a problem til this past winter. It builds up overtime to clog it If you've cleaned a reuseable intake yourself (EVER), then it's quite possible that the "preventative measure" they took is enough.

 

On the throttle body subject, if it is the idle compensation (as mentioned, no idle air control valve on this one since it is electronic), one thing to look at is what happens when it is idling and the AC kicks on.. does the car die then? Not that it would say 100% whether it is TB, but it would point closer at it for sure.

 

Ok Claudia, you should walk into the dealership without saying a word, then proceed to stand on top of the customer service desk and take a dump on it.

Ok so don't actually do that, but yea, it sounds like the dealership doesn't want to deal with it. I would try and find another one to take care of it. I know youve been having problems for a while now and I hope everything works out.

Also, try cleaning the maf sensor. I cleaned my friends the other day (who is also s/c'd) and it took care of several problems he was having. Give it a shot, the maf sensore cleaner is like four bucks at your local auto store. Keep us updated.