senseiturtle

1- The tC is a driver's race with the EP3 (2002-5 si) and at a SLIGHT disadvantage to an EM1. The brand new Si will destroy a tC.

2- Torque doesn't matter as much as you think in a straight-line drag. It is 100% about high-end Horsepower. Period. The only reason torquey cars feel faster down low, is because they make more HP down low.... based off of a mathematical formula.

The only reason we don't recommend the 2zz is because of the peaky-**** powerband, which leads to crappy daily driving when pulling a car heavier than a celica.

3- They are faster because of weight, yes, but their acceleration more comes from their gearing. They run much shorter overall gear ratios, and can get away with it because they redline so f'ing high. Look at the new Si's ratios, 15.6 or shorter overall first gear, compared to our already short 14.98. If we ran gears that short, we'd finish the 1/4 in 5th.

senseiturtle

1- The civic SI has a supercharger too... Just not one offered by Mugen or Honda. The supercharger we get DOES NOT COME STOCK, NOR SHOULD IT BE COMPARED TO ANY STOCK CAR.


2- K20a3 = 160hp (EP3 si)
K20a2 = 200hp ( typeS )
k20z1 = 210 (type S, 05+)
k20z3 = 197 ( new Si)

All K series are NOT created equal.

sensay

sure their that fast because they are lighter and have better gears. but the tC's engine is actually gets its Greater amount of power quicker than it because it doesnt have to go up as high. This fool over there wants to put in that weaker engine into a heavier tc, with the longer gear ratios of the tC expecting it to be faster. He just doesnt realize its actually going to be much slower. (once again talking about SI's prior to 06)

senseiturtle

What you say is sorta true. Yes, higher torque motors get power quicker, but since we don't rev very high, we can't hold the gears long enough to utilize it as much as a high-rev'ing motor would.

There is a "best of both worlds" in an F1 motor. Astronomical Revs and 271 lb-ft = easy 1000+ HP motors that define acceleration.

He won't be "slower" sticking a k20a3 in a tC. The newfound top-end will offset the torque loss. However, he will NEVER get the kick-in-the-pants at 2000 rpm that a torque motor will offer... he'll have to wait for his power.

The real problem with his suggestion is feasability. He would need to completely rewire the car, put an SI tranny in, custom motormounts, electronics, etc. and just pray it all works together just to get right back to where he started.

Much better to use a 1MZ which MIGHT just bolt right in. No one's ever tried it, but it has a much better chance of working than not... with excellent reasons for using that motor. You should see it under boost... a monster!

jakedudeta

Looks like this thread is devolving into another Si vs. Tc thread. Here is my 10 cents. I test drove the new Si and it is pretty cool, especially the gauges. The problem is that you have to keep that motor above 5k for any power because its definately a high winder. It would be fun on the open highway, but hell for a traffic commute. Overall, with the difference in price and the lack of torque in the Civic (not to mention that nobody wants to be yet another 'modded civic; guy) the Tc and the civic represent two different ideas. I think that the Tc is more practical and will be more affordable both in the short and long term (cheaper gas and insurance). For those of you who need the newest thing just get the Si. As far as the motor goes, it has high end power, but nothing until 4.5k. Just my 10 cents. Happy new year.

sensay

dont forget bout the 1999-2000 SI's with their lil 1.6L 160hp 111 ft motors
they still made a 0-60 of 7.4 just like us but then again their like 500lbs lighter
(not K20)

senseiturtle

This is true...

The b16 is a common swap for the hondas with smaller engine bays, as little modification is needed to go from d-series mounts to b-series mounts.

The lighter weights of the CRX and hatches also makes this a fun daily driver, since not much torque is needed to zing through the powerband.

But... we were really discussing the K-series into a tC. Which, again, not gonna happen.

killerxromances

Not all Si's had a K series in them, the EP3 was the first Si with a K series. What i meant to say was it was the first Si with the z series. (k20z) S/c tcs run frequently low 14s?? Since when, fastest time i've seen a s/c tC run was 14.8 with other modifications, i'm talking about a stock 2az with just the supercharger. Thats not going to run low 14's.

Oh, and unlike some people i don't get mad over useless things such as car forums. Too many people talk too much on this forum. It used to be pretty cool, but now its just filled with newbie drama.

killerxromances

Why wont it happen? Its not like its not possible. Like i stated on the first page, K20a is going to your best bet with moding if you want to have more tq. Especially with the release of the hks turbo for it.

senseiturtle

Obviously, anything's possible.

But typically, switching brands of engines is a daunting task. He'll need a COMPLETE motor, fabricate some motor mounts, a compatible honda transmission that lines up with the drivetrain, as well as tons of electrical work.

Sticking a 1MZ isn't going to be a slice of pie, but you've got an excellent chance that it'll be much easier. The transmission might line right up, since the 1MZ has seen a toyota 5-speed in the camry. The in-car electrics might be compatibile with the ECU with much less rewiring.

Now that I think about it, a 3RZ might be your best swap if you want torque. Might even work easier than the V6.


I'm too lazy to research all of the details concerning either swap, but toyota cars don't have the "universal" engine bay setup that honda's have always had.

killerxromances

This is true, honda always does stuff right when it comes to tuners. It was definitely true when i had the gsr back in the day. I really wish toyota was more like honda and learned from them. They are a great company, don't get me wrong. But i wish they could atleast learn from Honda when it comes to Scion at very least. They sell Scions targeting tuners, or at least, thats their goal and as you can see from the community they are meeting their goals. So personally i feel like they could have done a better job at certain things seeing to it that tuners have complete control over what they can do.

senseiturtle

I completely agree.

We've all heard the term "blank slate" until we're blue in the face.


All hope isn't lost though. I'd expect some pretty sick boosted and NA motors coming in the next few years. The camry motor needs help, but it isn't helpless.

killerxromances

Yeah, and honestly neither is the 1nz. Sure, its a small motor and a "unlikely" platform. But zpi plans to do (so i hear) some pretty crazy stuff. Theres a few humps like any motor the 1nz has to go over before true potiental can be seen. Mainly ecu, rods and a few other things. (common in just about any motor) Hopefully zpi can come out with something to fix our existing issues and put out. Of course, 120-130whp on a xb/xa is going to be pretty fast. Our gearing (even on auto) is fairly close which helps us really use what we have. Plus power to weight and other things. I don't know if its true or not, but i've heard zpi is also bringing in a xa to do testing on. (they also have an xb i believe) And from what i hear, they might be producing 200whp. It sounds unlikely right now, but then again, some thought the 2az wouldn't see past 350-400whp without major problems to work out.