equal lenght manifold and turbo.
06-13-2005, 07:27 PM
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equal lenght manifold and turbo.
My reply here cause the site admin wants it here:
You have stated that dyno data would be forth coming to show a turbo header makes power. I have yet to see it, were is it?
I have stated that I’ve been into turbo performance for years and have many buds junk their OEM or aftermarket logs for turbo headers and NONE have seen any worth while performance for the $1000 it cost on their street cars.
I’ve already admitted time and again I have no clue to building high boost ¼ mile drag cars.
10 second cars with log? Dexter Lum’s 1.8 liter 8V Rabbit was running a log in the 80s.
11 second cars: Robert from forced performance is in the low 11s with his DSM and I’ve seen many many many many 11 second DSM NONE with a header.
http://linux.forcedperformance.net/m...egory_Code=DSM
12 second cars with standard manifold? EVO, every base kit: Drag, HKS, FMax / Turbonetics, DSM, Euro cars with aftermarket turbo like Dinnan, SRT, 1.8T VW,
Where have you been over the last 20 years? Do you even go down to the tracks? You sound like a magazine racer. Do you honestly believe that a 4 to 1 equalenght header is needed or used by the Joe Average. Last time I was at the tracks there was one Honda racer towed in that had a turbo header, out of the say 100 cars there I did not see a single other car with a 4 to 1 and there were a few 11 second 4 bangers and a whole gaggle of 12 second guys.
See my point, you better lay off the magazines and actual go down to the ¼ mile and look for street driven turbo cars running 4 to 1 headers. Of course on most Honda setups that would mean tossing off the A/C too, which would no longer make it a “car” to most people. See my point?
Gee ZPI stage 1 with log is making 340 WHP, I think that will allow enough “ripping” for most people. It is doing it with 10 PSI and by your own admission it is NOT a huge issue. Neither is spool due to the sizing of the turbo.
So it comes out what would you be getting for $1000 ea turbo header? Um the loss of an A/c for most applications... and a bling factor.
I await on baited breath your dyno showing a street setup picking up a whole bunch of power by switching to a turbo header as you promised....
Originally Posted by turbo2liter
Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 10's.
Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 11's.
Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 12's.
See the point?
Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 11's.
Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 12's.
See the point?
I have stated that I’ve been into turbo performance for years and have many buds junk their OEM or aftermarket logs for turbo headers and NONE have seen any worth while performance for the $1000 it cost on their street cars.
I’ve already admitted time and again I have no clue to building high boost ¼ mile drag cars.
10 second cars with log? Dexter Lum’s 1.8 liter 8V Rabbit was running a log in the 80s.
11 second cars: Robert from forced performance is in the low 11s with his DSM and I’ve seen many many many many 11 second DSM NONE with a header.
http://linux.forcedperformance.net/m...egory_Code=DSM
12 second cars with standard manifold? EVO, every base kit: Drag, HKS, FMax / Turbonetics, DSM, Euro cars with aftermarket turbo like Dinnan, SRT, 1.8T VW,
Where have you been over the last 20 years? Do you even go down to the tracks? You sound like a magazine racer. Do you honestly believe that a 4 to 1 equalenght header is needed or used by the Joe Average. Last time I was at the tracks there was one Honda racer towed in that had a turbo header, out of the say 100 cars there I did not see a single other car with a 4 to 1 and there were a few 11 second 4 bangers and a whole gaggle of 12 second guys.
See my point, you better lay off the magazines and actual go down to the ¼ mile and look for street driven turbo cars running 4 to 1 headers. Of course on most Honda setups that would mean tossing off the A/C too, which would no longer make it a “car” to most people. See my point?
Originally Posted by turbo2liter
You want an equal length or tubular, why? If all you want is 12+, it's fine. Backpressure won't become a huge issue at 10psi. You go for 20, you're getting into iffy territory.
There will also be spool differences going from a log to a tubular/equal length. On your 16g's, it probably won't be noticeable since you're making 5psi at idle ;)
KungPao, are you kidding? Are you saying you're never going to take your car out and rip it? Please, don't kid yourself.
There will also be spool differences going from a log to a tubular/equal length. On your 16g's, it probably won't be noticeable since you're making 5psi at idle ;)
KungPao, are you kidding? Are you saying you're never going to take your car out and rip it? Please, don't kid yourself.
So it comes out what would you be getting for $1000 ea turbo header? Um the loss of an A/c for most applications... and a bling factor.
I await on baited breath your dyno showing a street setup picking up a whole bunch of power by switching to a turbo header as you promised....
06-13-2005, 08:02 PM
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Pwned!!!!!!!! The best part is, Oldman was't even being an ___ about it, he was just calling the guy out 
06-13-2005, 08:08 PM
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BURN!! Best post ever!
06-13-2005, 08:19 PM
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lol yeah oldman..lol 
turbo2liter is going around missinforming and trolling.
turbo2liter is going around missinforming and trolling.
06-13-2005, 08:38 PM
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I'd like to see these dynos aswell.
06-13-2005, 10:50 PM
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there are a million ways to skin a cat...
"A turbo manifold is just like your stock exhaust manifold except for that it directs air into
the turbo to drive the exhaust wheel instead of leading straight out to the exhaust system.
After going through the turbo, the downpipe is what connects the turbo to the rest of the
exhaust. The design of this is critical. There are log style turbo manifolds, cast, and
tubular style. Tubular equal length manifolds make the most horsepower, with longer
runners and an equal length design. They are designed to where exhaust pulses do not
interfere with each other. Faster spool up and strong top end power are charactoristic of
this style. However, they are typically more expensive, require more bracing to prevent any
cracking. They also take up more space and are more difficult to design."
... to quote a "magazine"
but there's no pudding so no proof!
"A turbo manifold is just like your stock exhaust manifold except for that it directs air into
the turbo to drive the exhaust wheel instead of leading straight out to the exhaust system.
After going through the turbo, the downpipe is what connects the turbo to the rest of the
exhaust. The design of this is critical. There are log style turbo manifolds, cast, and
tubular style. Tubular equal length manifolds make the most horsepower, with longer
runners and an equal length design. They are designed to where exhaust pulses do not
interfere with each other. Faster spool up and strong top end power are charactoristic of
this style. However, they are typically more expensive, require more bracing to prevent any
cracking. They also take up more space and are more difficult to design."
... to quote a "magazine"
but there's no pudding so no proof!
06-14-2005, 01:43 AM
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You pointed out 1 car in the 10's running a log style manifold.
You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.
You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.
Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.
You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same. For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.
Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.
When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.
You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.
You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.
Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.
You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same. For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.
Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.
When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.
06-14-2005, 01:52 AM
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i would imagine the decrease of backpressure would increase the hp and life of the turbo (tubular over log style). it only makes sense. but i haven't seen any head to head comparisons of it.
not even sure if the equal length would matter as long as the diameter of the piping is big enough to collect the gases without increasing backpressure.
but then again. i haven't seen any head to head comparisons of it.
not even sure if the equal length would matter as long as the diameter of the piping is big enough to collect the gases without increasing backpressure.
but then again. i haven't seen any head to head comparisons of it.
06-14-2005, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by turbo2liter
You pointed out 1 car in the 10's running a log style manifold.
You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.
You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.
Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.
You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same. For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.
Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.
When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.
You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.
You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.
Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.
You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same. For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.
Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.
When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.
06-14-2005, 02:52 AM
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turbo2liter wrote
At least I found some, did you find any dyno run to prove your point? You know the dyno run you promised was forthcoming?
turbo2liter wrote
Really? I don’t know the last time I pump 105 octane and had the wastegate set to 20 PSI of boost to drive down to my grocery store to pick up a 6 pack, coming off every stop sign at 6000 RPM feathering the clutch just hoping the turbo will spool before Christmas, and sans A/C cause it don’t fit my equal length turbo header. Did I mention no air clearer or exhaust? Yeah that to. 
Now on a street car, I kind of want some low speed spool so I can see some boost at say 2000 RPM and be at full torque at highway RPM or about 3000 RPM. I want an A/C and I’d like an air cleaner and exhaust. Also Ya know I like the turbo setup to work on pump gas. Lastly I hope the manifold cost less then the $1000 and can take snow, rain, and a few thousand heat cycles, also I hope that it does not get so hot to peal that paint off my hood.
But I can see where you are coming from there is “no difference” I just wonder why cars like the SRT just don’t come out with the race setup…. NOT.
turbo2liter wrote
Um dude I don’t know what Scion turbo you are getting but mine I hope to get 240 WHP… FYI ZPI stage 2 HAS a turbo header. Will I see gains on my 6.5 PSI for $1000 that turbo header will cost? I think not, but you were going to show a street car dyno that proves just that. Yet I’m still waiting and the only thing you can say is if I was running 300 to 400 WHP I would see some gain, gee and if I purchased for $1000 more a ZPI stage 1 I’d see about 100 WHP MORE so how much WHP would I see from this $1000 turbo header? Yeah, like I thought bout the most expensive HP this side of Ferrari.
turbo2liter wrote
Sure sounds like a race setup to me, but I digress as you don’t see any difference between a race car and a street car.
turbo2liter wrote
Why do you think a street car can spin up a race car turbo, do you think 92 octane and work traffic or lugging up hills can take the same boost pressure as a light weight large gear, dry iced intercooler race car? Do you think that a 2000 heat cycle drive in rain while red hot, drive in snow turbo manifold is the same as a ¼ mile at a time cool down fair weather no water, 100 heat cycle race turbo header?
Oh I know where the threshold for my extra $1000.00 and the ability to keep my A/C would be to upgrade to a stage 1 kit, maybe you should spend all your money in actually buying a scion before further comment?
You pointed out 1 car in the 10's running a log style manifold.
You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.
You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.
Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.
You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.
You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.
Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.
turbo2liter wrote
You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same.
Now on a street car, I kind of want some low speed spool so I can see some boost at say 2000 RPM and be at full torque at highway RPM or about 3000 RPM. I want an A/C and I’d like an air cleaner and exhaust. Also Ya know I like the turbo setup to work on pump gas. Lastly I hope the manifold cost less then the $1000 and can take snow, rain, and a few thousand heat cycles, also I hope that it does not get so hot to peal that paint off my hood.
But I can see where you are coming from there is “no difference” I just wonder why cars like the SRT just don’t come out with the race setup…. NOT.
turbo2liter wrote
For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.
Yet I’m still waiting and the only thing you can say is if I was running 300 to 400 WHP I would see some gain, gee and if I purchased for $1000 more a ZPI stage 1 I’d see about 100 WHP MORE so how much WHP would I see from this $1000 turbo header? Yeah, like I thought bout the most expensive HP this side of Ferrari. turbo2liter wrote
Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.
turbo2liter wrote
When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.
Oh I know where the threshold for my extra $1000.00 and the ability to keep my A/C would be to upgrade to a stage 1 kit, maybe you should spend all your money in actually buying a scion before further comment?
06-14-2005, 03:17 AM
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Not to kill the owning of mr. turbo2liter, aka colin, but here is a test for a honda.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=925312
This was a 250whp car with a log manifold that then gained 68whp untuned when they used the same tune, downpipe and turbo with the tubular manifold. The log manifold spools 300rpms faster, but once the engine starts breathing, the tubular instantly has the advantage.
Next example is on an SR20DET by Nissan:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1056249
they went from a log manifold to a full-race tubular manifold picking up 60whp. So 300 to 360 still at 13psi of boost.
you can say all you want that there is no difference. I know cars running 11s with stock 'log' manifolds(drag3 manifold), but i know people with cast manifolds with long runners running 10s (inlinepro.com).
But the links I posted do clearly show if the engine has teh ability to breath better up top(ie this is where a honda engine comes to life) a properly designed turbo tubular manifold is key.
-Sean
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=925312
This was a 250whp car with a log manifold that then gained 68whp untuned when they used the same tune, downpipe and turbo with the tubular manifold. The log manifold spools 300rpms faster, but once the engine starts breathing, the tubular instantly has the advantage.
Next example is on an SR20DET by Nissan:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1056249
they went from a log manifold to a full-race tubular manifold picking up 60whp. So 300 to 360 still at 13psi of boost.
you can say all you want that there is no difference. I know cars running 11s with stock 'log' manifolds(drag3 manifold), but i know people with cast manifolds with long runners running 10s (inlinepro.com).
But the links I posted do clearly show if the engine has teh ability to breath better up top(ie this is where a honda engine comes to life) a properly designed turbo tubular manifold is key.
-Sean
06-14-2005, 03:27 AM
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Tubular manifold all the way........
06-14-2005, 03:36 AM
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good examples. a gain of 20% at 13 psi on that nissan.
impressive. with half the boost (6.5) you could possibly gain 10% power
impressive. with half the boost (6.5) you could possibly gain 10% power
06-14-2005, 04:00 AM
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yeh a vendor gee go figure, and they forgot to tell you that the A/C fell off at the same time.... Last time I checked my Camry cam tC died well before 8200 RPM vs the VTEC engine. You should refer to the initial post were I said "stock camry cam engine". But I'll keep this in mind if I sel my Scion and buy a Honda and want to drive around Texas with no A/C OK You can check the dyno graph and see just below 5000 RPM there is NO power difference at all. Lastly I would suspect other issues for a turbo GS-R at 10 PSI that started off at 250 crank HP don't you
http://www.revhard.com/turbokit/inte...9401&model=GSR
As we all can see Revhard with a cast log says 290 BHP 7 PSI. So don't know when you sand bag the first number to show how good the second number really is. Rest assured the dynopack dyno above reads higher then a dynojet and if you look on the left this is SAE crank HP or BHP which means actual non-corrected wheel HP was about 220 WHP if it was from a dynoject as measured. Now come surely we all know a 10 PSI turbo GS-R puts out more then 220 WHP…
Lets look at a REAL log manifold not a cast log, that would be FMAX and at 8 to 9 PSI it puts out 245 WHP or 270 to 280 BHP, it is completely believable that this log will put out 290+ BHP with 10 PSI of boost.
http://www.turbo-kits.com/b18ci_gsr_vtec_dyno.html
The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post, and now by roasting your paint off the hood, and tossing out you’re a/c you can gain 50 crank HP with our setup as we are selling you a 4 to 1 turbo header, or you can go to Rev or Turbonetics and get a log, keep you paint, keep your a/c and and put out the same HP….
You can check the dyno graph and see just below 5000 RPM there is NO power difference at all. Lastly I would suspect other issues for a turbo GS-R at 10 PSI that started off at 250 crank HP don't you http://www.revhard.com/turbokit/inte...9401&model=GSR
As we all can see Revhard with a cast log says 290 BHP 7 PSI. So don't know when you sand bag the first number to show how good the second number really is.
Rest assured the dynopack dyno above reads higher then a dynojet and if you look on the left this is SAE crank HP or BHP which means actual non-corrected wheel HP was about 220 WHP if it was from a dynoject as measured. Now come surely we all know a 10 PSI turbo GS-R puts out more then 220 WHP… Lets look at a REAL log manifold not a cast log, that would be FMAX and at 8 to 9 PSI it puts out 245 WHP or 270 to 280 BHP, it is completely believable that this log will put out 290+ BHP with 10 PSI of boost.
http://www.turbo-kits.com/b18ci_gsr_vtec_dyno.html
The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post, and now by roasting your paint off the hood, and tossing out you’re a/c you can gain 50 crank HP with our setup as we are selling you a 4 to 1 turbo header, or you can go to Rev or Turbonetics and get a log, keep you paint, keep your a/c and and put out the same HP….
06-14-2005, 04:01 AM
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OK on to the Nissan test. Gee 13 PSI which is only 30% more PSI then my upto 10 PSI and double the PSI of my stage 0 kit.
Gee BIG cams, well if you read the post the smaller cams actually made more HP on the log:
agreed!! with stock cams on the SR (240 duration 9.2mm lift) the log manifold performs slightly better than it did in this test
Don't know how well my Camry cams will take to the turbo header as a check of the dyno once again shows NO difference upto 4200 RPM, where I happen to spend 99.999% of the time in.
Oh and lets see HUGE turbo, downpipe probably run open for the test and the engine built for 500 WHP, just a little over my tC’s anticipated 240 WHP, Eh? and with all that we get 340 WHP at 10 PSI, just what the ZPI tC does capped up with Camry like near stock exhaust and a log manifold, stock cams, etc. IMO maybe these guys trying to build a 500 WHP race car and “scratching” their collective heads would give ZPI a call to get straightened out. I would even have bother to dyno a log manifold with their build, much less wonder why my 500 WHP build is putting out 300 WHP at 13 PSI. I wonder what their customer thinks after forking over $$$$ for a 500 WHP build and getting a 340 WHP car but yeh it has a fancy exhaust manifold. Wonders never cease.
I don't what else we can all learn from a 500 WHP build that now is stuck at 360 WHP, besides don't go to that vendor for an engine and turbo setup.
Oh and the AGP log that I posted here is a dyno:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...90#post1999890
418 WHP not bad for a LOG
and 400 WHP by 5400 RPM and where um the big cam Nissan with turbo header make 400 WHP? Nowhere and where did it make 360 WHP at 7500 RPM
How long does the log last?
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...48#post1961548
Now the ZPI kit here:
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...68009&start=25
Yep 340 WHP from 5000 RPM to 6200 RPM with a LOG .
Yep logs suck, when you gotta race against them...
Gee BIG cams, well if you read the post the smaller cams actually made more HP on the log:
agreed!! with stock cams on the SR (240 duration 9.2mm lift) the log manifold performs slightly better than it did in this test
Don't know how well my Camry cams will take to the turbo header as a check of the dyno once again shows NO difference upto 4200 RPM, where I happen to spend 99.999% of the time in.
Oh and lets see HUGE turbo, downpipe probably run open for the test and the engine built for 500 WHP, just a little over my tC’s anticipated 240 WHP, Eh? and with all that we get 340 WHP at 10 PSI, just what the ZPI tC does capped up with Camry like near stock exhaust and a log manifold, stock cams, etc. IMO maybe these guys trying to build a 500 WHP race car and “scratching” their collective heads would give ZPI a call to get straightened out. I would even have bother to dyno a log manifold with their build, much less wonder why my 500 WHP build is putting out 300 WHP at 13 PSI. I wonder what their customer thinks after forking over $$$$ for a 500 WHP build and getting a 340 WHP car but yeh it has a fancy exhaust manifold. Wonders never cease.
I don't what else we can all learn from a 500 WHP build that now is stuck at 360 WHP, besides don't go to that vendor for an engine and turbo setup.
Oh and the AGP log that I posted here is a dyno:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...90#post1999890
418 WHP not bad for a LOG
and 400 WHP by 5400 RPM and where um the big cam Nissan with turbo header make 400 WHP? Nowhere and where did it make 360 WHP at 7500 RPM
How long does the log last?
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/show...48#post1961548
Now the ZPI kit here:
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...68009&start=25
Yep 340 WHP from 5000 RPM to 6200 RPM with a LOG .
Yep logs suck, when you gotta race against them...
06-14-2005, 04:17 AM
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This is a pretty informitive post. gj to all partys involved
06-14-2005, 12:04 PM
#17
Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 219
Old man you obviously have some misconceptions when it comes to turbo vehicles. I'm not familiar with your internals, but it's commonplace to run 16-18psi on 9:1 internals on 93 pump gas. Retard the timing a few degrees and you could run this on 91.
I sent you a PM Old man re: dyno sheets. Thanks for posting some up Sean.
Why would you launch off every stoplight? You can design a header to fit around a/c, it might not be exactly equal length, but anything tubular is better as proven above. Place the turbo a bit lower and modify the downpipe to fit. Running a large turbo has nothing to do with a street or race car, it's for what power you are looking for. You can run cats on any car, and have a minimal affect on performance.
I see 5-6psi at 3000 rpm on my setup. Everyone jokes about hot underhood temps, yet none of us DSM guys have paint "peeling" off our hoods.. not that our paint is inherently good to begin with though. A little lining of heat wrap will fix anything, and look good too. If you are worried about your manifold cracking, maybe you should consider who's building it for you. Mine comes with a lifetime warranty against any defect, does yours? Also, you should be taking the proper safegaurds with your turbo car. This includes letting it warm up, and especially, cooling down, before turning off. Oil changes every 3000 miles if you appreciate your turbo's bearings.
I find this line VERY ironic, considering there have been no customer's independently dyno their cars, and you are already claiming how much power you're going to make. Are you even at the same altitude as Louisville? Do you have any idea how much difference that makes for tuning, ESPECIALLY a MAF setup?
Did you read at all about the specs on this car? You talk as if because you get a large turbo, you are planning to make 500whp. Many people buy larger than what they need in case they want to expand. Maybe he only had enough injector for 350whp ;)
I sent you a PM Old man re: dyno sheets. Thanks for posting some up Sean.
Originally Posted by oldman
Really? I don’t know the last time I pump 105 octane and had the wastegate set to 20 PSI of boost to drive down to my grocery store to pick up a 6 pack, coming off every stop sign at 6000 RPM feathering the clutch just hoping the turbo will spool before Christmas, and sans A/C cause it don’t fit my equal length turbo header. Did I mention no air clearer or exhaust? Yeah that to. Doh!
Originally Posted by oldman
Now on a street car, I kind of want some low speed spool so I can see some boost at say 2000 RPM and be at full torque at highway RPM or about 3000 RPM. I want an A/C and I’d like an air cleaner and exhaust. Also Ya know I like the turbo setup to work on pump gas. Lastly I hope the manifold cost less then the $1000 and can take snow, rain, and a few thousand heat cycles, also I hope that it does not get so hot to peal that paint off my hood.
Originally Posted by oldman
The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post
Originally Posted by oldman
I wonder what their customer thinks after forking over $$$$ for a 500 WHP build and getting a 340 WHP car but yeh it has a fancy exhaust manifold.
06-14-2005, 01:43 PM
#18
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 7
*yawn* Tubular manifolds 9/10 times decrease ramp time for turbochargers, and help with upper rpm flow as well. So if you get the exhaust pulses to the turbine wheel without disruption in the smoothest flow possible it's only beneficial. A tubular manifold if built correctly will outshine a log style in everyway, performance, durability, and looks. Seems like a win to me.
06-14-2005, 01:48 PM
#19
Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by oldman
yeh a vendor gee go figure, and they forgot to tell you that the A/C fell off at the same time.... Last time I checked my Camry cam tC died well before 8200 RPM vs the VTEC engine. You should refer to the initial post were I said "stock camry cam engine". But I'll keep this in mind if I sel my Scion and buy a Honda and want to drive around Texas with no A/C OK You can check the dyno graph and see just below 5000 RPM there is NO power difference at all. Lastly I would suspect other issues for a turbo GS-R at 10 PSI that started off at 250 crank HP don't you
http://www.revhard.com/turbokit/inte...9401&model=GSR
As we all can see Revhard with a cast log says 290 BHP 7 PSI. So don't know when you sand bag the first number to show how good the second number really is. Rest assured the dynopack dyno above reads higher then a dynojet and if you look on the left this is SAE crank HP or BHP which means actual non-corrected wheel HP was about 220 WHP if it was from a dynoject as measured. Now come surely we all know a 10 PSI turbo GS-R puts out more then 220 WHP…
Lets look at a REAL log manifold not a cast log, that would be FMAX and at 8 to 9 PSI it puts out 245 WHP or 270 to 280 BHP, it is completely believable that this log will put out 290+ BHP with 10 PSI of boost.
http://www.turbo-kits.com/b18ci_gsr_vtec_dyno.html
The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post, and now by roasting your paint off the hood, and tossing out you’re a/c you can gain 50 crank HP with our setup as we are selling you a 4 to 1 turbo header, or you can go to Rev or Turbonetics and get a log, keep you paint, keep your a/c and and put out the same HP….
You can check the dyno graph and see just below 5000 RPM there is NO power difference at all. Lastly I would suspect other issues for a turbo GS-R at 10 PSI that started off at 250 crank HP don't you http://www.revhard.com/turbokit/inte...9401&model=GSR
As we all can see Revhard with a cast log says 290 BHP 7 PSI. So don't know when you sand bag the first number to show how good the second number really is.
Rest assured the dynopack dyno above reads higher then a dynojet and if you look on the left this is SAE crank HP or BHP which means actual non-corrected wheel HP was about 220 WHP if it was from a dynoject as measured. Now come surely we all know a 10 PSI turbo GS-R puts out more then 220 WHP… Lets look at a REAL log manifold not a cast log, that would be FMAX and at 8 to 9 PSI it puts out 245 WHP or 270 to 280 BHP, it is completely believable that this log will put out 290+ BHP with 10 PSI of boost.
http://www.turbo-kits.com/b18ci_gsr_vtec_dyno.html
The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post, and now by roasting your paint off the hood, and tossing out you’re a/c you can gain 50 crank HP with our setup as we are selling you a 4 to 1 turbo header, or you can go to Rev or Turbonetics and get a log, keep you paint, keep your a/c and and put out the same HP….
1. the first post made by Full-Race wasn't performed by a vendor in the first place. Evans Tuning in PA performed all the tests independently. Sure the vendor put the post up, but hell it showed that they had made a manifold which outperformed a log style manifold by 68whp. I think any vendor would do this.
Next, you make constant jabs that you are required to lose AC, 100% untrue.
Example:
http://www.full-race.com/images/gallery/ac_kit/
Here you see a honda engine with a t3/t67 turbo installed. This is the largest t3 turbo available currently and its a tight fit but it fits perfectly with a 3in downpipe.
Next:
http://www.lovefabinc.com/index.php?...5bd1806e1d8190
Look at Lovefab's new sidewinder manifold. This manifold allows for a full length radiator, AC and a full 4in downpipe.
So you can run your t3/t67, have 500whp and still keep your AC on while you cruise around texas. These manifolds would show marked improvements.
Next point, regarding how you can make power with cast manifolds. Please re-read my first post. Notice I said people are making alot of power with cast manifolds with long runners, IE all of the new Rev-Hard manifolds aren't just log manifolds, they have 4 runners that merge into one, I wouldn't consider them a log:
http://www.revhard.com/turbomanifold...sTurboManifold
or the link to www.inlinepro.com. There manifold has cast long runners and performs great. Longer runners tend to allow for better flow and allows the heat to be engineered to be focused on the turbine better.
I'll side with colin over a group of car owners loving one particular vendor. Although I will say, the people at Full-Race currently have thier manifolds on many 500+whp cars, some with AC, some without. They have countless groups of people that use thier manifolds for daily driving, they also have thier manifolds on Pro racers. Thier name stands for itself. I'd venture to say that if they came to the scion community, many people would go to them.
although i do see your point, the scion cams are no where near as aggressive as a honda, just won't happen. The log manifold i'm sure will be good for 80% of teh userbase, as well they haven't really experience alot of power before, so any increase is a good increase. Yet if someone moves to take thier car to the next level and push for a high hp vehicle, the tubular manifold will end up replacing the log. Hell look at ZPI, thier stage 3 kit, eliminates the AC and you get a ..... tubular manifold.
06-14-2005, 02:05 PM
#20
Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by sparkknock
*yawn* Tubular manifolds 9/10 times decrease ramp time for turbochargers, and help with upper rpm flow as well. So if you get the exhaust pulses to the turbine wheel without disruption in the smoothest flow possible it's only beneficial. A tubular manifold if built correctly will outshine a log style in everyway, performance, durability, and looks. Seems like a win to me.
NVS_TC - Where are you now? You stated that there are no gains to be had by adding a tubular to a stago 0 kit because oldman said so. You said I'm arguing but I'm agreeing with him. Why don't you come in here and debate with me. I never agreed with him, I said tubular is ALWAYS better than a log style, regardless of what performance you can get out of a log. I said for 6-8psi, log is probably fine (what oldman said), then oldman decided to turn south and go into Honda kits and a/c and this other junk to avoid the topic at hand.
Originally Posted by NVS_TC
I've read a lot of turbo2liter's post and apprently he likes to argue even if someone agrees with him.
OLDMAN post that you wont make any power with stage 0 by changing out the manifold to a tubular . Do you understand????? Its worthless to have a tubular manifold on stage 0!!!
OLDMAN post that you wont make any power with stage 0 by changing out the manifold to a tubular . Do you understand????? Its worthless to have a tubular manifold on stage 0!!!
Originally Posted by raamaudio
Turbo2, or is that terrible two, can you just stop trying to argue with everyone and read what they really posted?
I do believe a mid level system can have some gain from a tubular manifold but not by alot and normally you just move the lower end response up the RPM scale, sometimes gaining power is just moving it around;)
I do believe a mid level system can have some gain from a tubular manifold but not by alot and normally you just move the lower end response up the RPM scale, sometimes gaining power is just moving it around;)