Well it's gonna be difficult for him to find a map for that turbo. However it shares the same wheel they use in both the sc61 and I believe its standard in the gt40 turbo's as well. The sc61 will support around 630hp @ the crank. His turbo should support slightly less right around 600hp. I dont see exactly how it would be surging.. He should actually be right around the sweet spot in the upper rpms and the boost level he is running, rather then pushing a smaller turbo to it's limits. No it wouldnt be the ideal autocross turbo, but for what he uses for I'd say it's a pretty good choice.


http://www.modified.com/sportculture...o/MOV03519.MPG

Thats the blue jotec scion on the dyno.

 

I was mainly pointing out the Jotech car due to the tubular manifold and the fact that it was running pretty damn quick.

I'd be interested to see your graphs oldman, just to see what you assume a b18c1 does verse my block, as the pressure calculations have alot of variables in place.

Either way, the turbo I have is the GT3561e by Precision. basicly a GT35r exhaust wheel combined with a GT40 compressor wheel.

Very common to the ever popular SC61 turbo that alot of honda people use, but with a better turbine wheel.

You want, you can compare my old t3/t4oe 60 trim setup. It was more of a stock b18c1 than the motor is now, since the head was stock then and i only reved to 8200rpms instead of 9600 as i do now.

http://www.turbocalculator.com/compr...ps/t04e-60.jpg

 

or the larger image
http://gallery.502streetscene.net/data/500/gt40map.jpg
For the GT40 compressor. I have it that between 4500rpms and 9500rpms i'm perfectly in the graph at my daily 1bar of boost.

 

I'll bust the cals when I have time. I've driven many 1.8 to 2.0 liter cars so I can just look at the graph and know that I will need about 15 lbs air /minute at 4500 RPM. Just looking at the graph would show that anything above 1.8 PR or about 12 PSI at the turbo ( lower at the intake due to pressure drop of the pipe and intercooler) this wheel is into surge where bad things like aluminum melting can happen in a short period of time. Not to mention that is way way way off the efficiency island. Eye ball look tells me around 8200 RPM at say 18 PSI is where the peak island is.

Thanks a perfect example of Joe Average drive this turbo on the street, blade melt off. thanks..

 

with a few seconds using this site:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-air-fuel-flow.htm
I come up with:
at 3000 RPM a B18C NA 80% VE is flowing6 lbs air / minute: Verdict turbo will be in surge at ANY boost level

at 4000 RPM 85% VE it is flowing 9 lbs air /minute: verdict turbo will be in surge at ANY boost level

at 5000 RPM 100% VE it is flowing 112.23 lb air / minute: turbo in low effeciency island but able to make 1.4 PR to 1.7 PR of boost or 6 to 10 PSI. At this point the flow and VE shoot up and the turbo will rapidly be on peak PR island.

Clearly the above is NOT streetable by Joe Average on his way to work.

for grins a scion can spool the turbo at 3500 RPM 100% VE (smaller cam and port size allows for greater VE at lower RPM) PR of 1.4 to 1.6 or 6 to 9 PSI reaching the peak islands much faster by 4500 RPM PR of 2.2 or 18 PSI....

Still clearly not drivable by Joe Average, but with a guy that knows not to bog the engine it could be a REAL terror on the street action scene.

So you see VTEC and turbo is NOT a match made in street driving heaven while big engine with low and broad torque curve (high levels of VE at low RPM) is a match made in heaven... Hence Scion speed's "log" is in the LOW 12s with 14 PSI on a much much smaller turbo able to make boost sub 3000 RPM..... on a near 3000 lbs car not some hollowed out sans A/C sans PS, Civic

 

So... not to get all that off topic (still talking about turbos!) but a Civic Si is meant for NA only? A turbo Civic EX isn't a good deal?

A s/c Civic seems so odd... I was considering the 06 Si but I guess that means no more FI?

 

oldman you are of course 100% right, i will melt the turbo completely off the car, as at 3900rpms, it is making 10psi of boost and metal shavings are shooting at baby jesus at mach 1. while my calcs show me making around 22lb/min at 5k rpms you are right, the car doesn't spool and more aluminum melts, as after all you drive teh car daily. By this time i'm walking to work and being overcome by the heat of the turbo blakes which have become enbedded into my skull from the massive turbine failure that all big turbo honda's experience since none of them can be driven on the roads.

by 5500rpms, the turbo is spooling somehow even after its melted into a lump of shiney alumium.

I used to consider you a wise individual. I'll retract all those thoughts. The car gets boost by 3300rpms, by 4200rpms when vtec kicks in, its at 15psi. Somehow nothing has melted off and broken off, from 4200 to 9500rpms the car is pulling itself at an ever increasing rate of speed.

I ran 11s last year on 13psi. Some reason a 12 second pass doesn't impress me. Scionspeed's turbo kit that they have posted is a tubular manifold, are you refering to ZPI's turbo kit? With a power band that reaches to 9500rpms, I don't want boost sub 3000rpms. That would restrict my top end, where i have a more aggressive cam and can more air better.

I hope that you join Jotech, Titan or AEM and educate them on performance honda's. For years they have made amazing power out of hondas with turbos that are much larger than mine. MANY are street drivin, Darin at Titan has become a major tuner and builder in the honda market. So many hondas are on the road with large turbos and you really expect me to believe the ____ you are spilling? That the turbine will melt itself because it is hitting the surge limit soo much. Dear god, get off your horse, your calculations are greatly skewed and completely non-realistic.

You act like only in a scion can you have AC and power, I've repeatly proven that wrong, but your new reply is the turbo will melt, is your ego that great that you cannot honestly see that there are thousands of hondas on the roads right now that have this?

I know you are ____ed about the log vs tubular manifold thing that I posted from a vendor, but damn to say that turbos are melting due to the gross oversizing of the turbo. That my low cam is creating catastrophic EGTs.

WOW is all I can say. WOW.

 

VTEC has a few problems like high CR, very light weight stuff like rods and pistons on the B18Cs. DOn't know about the K series...

The point is that if you size a turbo on a 8000 to 9000+ VTEC the turbo can be into heavy surge on a daily driver. The K is a bigger engine and can support a big turbo beter then a B series. The real point is the Honda boys sporting equal length turbo headers, big boost levels etc making like VTEC sewing machines are the bomb. I really want a car first and I've spent several years with turbo VTEC DOHC and while nice will be no where as nice as a tC with say stage 1 ZPI, LSD, clutch, a good set of tires, rear swaybar. 12.1 is FAST for a car with turbo, clutch (assumed) slicks. I had WAY more work into my Integra sans slicks and I never got into the low 12s. You know like $3000 into just th head and cams, $1000+ into th block, close to $2000 into the trans / clutch / shifter.... on and on... Plus in the end it got ripped off, the tC well the engine is a dime a dozen Camry engine, nobody is ripping tCs off for the engine. Yeah I know every Civic guy got his engine from Japan...

So once you get your GS-R ripped off to support the Civic boy crowd's race habit, you figure low production Honda VTEC cars just might as well have a "steal me" sign welded onto them.....

 

i guess i just see the different types of setups. I've tuned many cars in town with AC, PS and 18g turbos. instant spool.

I recently tuned a h22a turbo with a big ___ t3/t61 turbo, spooled in the 2800rpm range, all the way to 8100rpms.

My car is laggy, yes, its not an evo as I tell some of my evo buddy's that drive around at 1700-2200rpms as they cruise, its a high reving honda, you drive around at 3000-3500rpms and have instant power with these big turbos.

I think things have really come alot way from where you started. like i said, last year I ran 11.7, 100% stock head, never touched, pistons/rods (so around 2000 total into the block with replacing all seals/pumps and full balancing). 100% stock tranny, a 400 buck clutch and a turbo kit. Its not as cheap as the scion, but overall my price tag was under that of waht scion owners are paying.

Its all about what you want. If my car gets stolen, well I'll come looking for you as you are forecasting it, but that's what insurance is for. Yes, in big metro areas it can happen. With mine being a weekend warrior kept locked away in my garage, that's one angry thief to pass over the 2004 G35c, 2004 RSX S and all the real valuables in the house, just to get to a damn 13yr old civic.

 

don't forget, my compression is 9:1, i have all forged internals.

the stock motor cars I tune, I pull out some timing, they still get over 30mpg and may run 12s & 11s with slicks. Its all in the tune.

 

and how much does your VTEC DOHC weight? I figure on about 2200 lbs um compare that to 2930 for a tC and you can see why 12.1 from a BONE stock tC with a BONE stock trans is good.

I agree that lots can be done to a B series VTEC but gee 13 years of R&D. Just think if the tC / Camry kits take off there are lots of these run of the mill engine and the tC is really a cheap car compared to the cheapest VTEC DOHC that can be purchased.

Yeah it took 3.5 years for my car to get ripped, but it can and will happen, as the B engine DOHC VTEC came in only two cars and the 1.8 version came in only one! IMO you buy a SI 2006 it should have a steal me plaque on the back. Sure insurance will take car of it and I should ADD that insurance on the car will be FAR over a tC once they start getting ripped off.

Don't get me on the Evo, got Evo buds, they got $$$$$ into their car and NONE have smelled 11s PERIOD. I know you have links and every Evo owner is into the 11s

 

all my evo friends have thousands into thier cars and they still have ugly front ends and stupid taillights. But they can atleast get 4 big ___ guys comfortably in the car as we go somewhere.

my favorite evo owner is the, "well this car with the same mods I have ran this...." almost like a supra owner, but 400whp shy and still running 12s.

last year my car weighed in and around 2200lbs, this year i'm up 250lbs with teh rollcage and sparco seats.

a 12 second pass is good, I've seen alot of new cars doing it (neons, and some of the new corvettes.) But then again, speed is all realitive. I think you have a bad taste about hondas due to your run ins with theives. I'm sure if you got a turbo kit with a big nasty FMIC, the same issue could occur wtih your tC.

 

I like Honda, but when they went back to strut for the front suspension IMO the street performance went way down, the new revised 2005 RSX suspension is a step in the right direction, and the TSX of course is still with A-Arms up front. A nice car I though about buying one say maybe my third choice.

Yeah Evo, a nice drivetrain waiting for a body.....

So the point is daily driver, big displacement, lower CR, nonVTEC engine with log manifold and turbo is just fine, and cheap too. Like I said in the very first post..

 

I'll still take my high reving honda any day with a nice tubular manifold.

you know, garrett has even said that tubular manifolds are better than logs

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech102.html

#3

 

"One item of note is durability of this design. Because of the welded joints, thinner wall sections, and reduced stiffness, these types of manifolds are often susceptible to cracking due to thermal expansion/contraction and vibration. "

I've already said ALL OEM and most big aftermarket turbo makers pick a cast log or styled log manifold. So "better" for your admited weekend only sans A/C "car" is not "better" for my everyday car 100s of heat cycles, log which is $1000 cheaper thensome equal lenght turbo headers with iffy gains in power sub 10 PSI, Camry cam. For $1000 I could have a stage 1 intercooler with no cracking and heat problems and 100 WHP with the capacity to do even 150 WHp more.

Needless to same ALL OEM and MOST aftermarket kits should know a little something about the trade offs between a simple log type manifold and en equal length turbo header on street applications.

If you take your weekend only engine, turbo header combination vs the ZPI log combination and put it into the a brand X weight "car" the ZPI would perform better and be far more driveable with less cost. Big engine + turbo on log is > VTEC bling bling turbo header, large turbo. A fact that will be shown at race tracks and in many street smack downs in the near future. To put it simply take 1000 performance buffs but them in a X brand car with A/C that is 3000 lbs, weld the hood shut and at the end of the year ask them which engine they like: Turbo header, B18c DOHC VTEC or turbo log Camry engine..... ALL would say um I'll thake the REAL engine vs the sewing machine thanks. Hence Toyota is going from VVTL-i Celica to a larger engine tC baes VVT-i, Honda dumped DOHC VTECfor a V6 on the Accord which makes 240 HP on regular gas vs the Euro Accord )(aka TSX) at 200 HP DOHC VTEC and premium fuel with the same MPG. Which car is way faster? Clearly the bigger engine is BETTER.

The B engine has 13 years of developement, vs 1 year for the tC. The tC engine family is so widespread now vs um 2 cars with DOHC VTEC: RSX-S and TSX ( no I did not forget about the S2000, like how many do I see?). Meaning that in one year there are more Toyota family engines in the US then ALL DOHC VTEC engines ever in the US. That amount of installed user base will SOON crush Honda VTEC crowd, that and the far more streetable, driveable big engine turbo combination.... Street application turbo and VTEC is a forced union and the divorce is going to be ugly. One only has to look at the link I have above that shows a TURBO Intercooled VTEC DOHC engine making 150 ft-lbs of torque peak! thats only a few more then a stock tC, a stage 1 ZPI makes nearly double that torque over most of the RPM band.

I'm sure there will be some weekend strip-o Civics with turbo VTEC sans A/C, but most of us don't really consider them "cars".

 

i think before tC with ZPI kits take over the entire import community, honda's will still shine and still be on top. I'm sure you disagree, but in reality, the new K20 engine is lightyears above the old b-series. They are just a bit pricey at the moment. But when you can take one of them and put down 200whp with just a header and a K-pro, in pure OEM fashion, a boosted k20 would be simply amazing and would still rev high.

I know alot of people love torque, but tehy need it, their cars weigh 3000lbs. Look at SRT4s, my local friend made 480whp & 515wlbs, he ran a 11.75 a 25psi in the qtr. That same day, i ran a 11.75 at 12psi with 355whp/245wlbs.

You are also only comparing, the said ZPI kit, which will suffer from the same weaknesses you posted, as its a tubular log manifold, its not cast. So all your arguments of how great cast manifold are, well guess what, you won't have that.

I love how you think that all honda with turbos have to be stripped without AC. I know alot of guys making very good power from 3k to 8k rpms that have AC and full interiors, heat, daily driven. Just because I choose to drive my 04 Infiniti G35c everyday over a 92 civic, I don't think you should assume that there aren't alot of daily driven turbo civics.

I think your judgement is extremely clouded, but then again, its a scion board, so I guess you should be 110% for that car, if not why own one right?

 

In truth out side of my own Honda turbo, I say they not only don't have A/C, they don't have water cooling of the turbo, air filters, and sound deadning, and paint of one color go ahead take a poll how many turbo Civics with a water cooled turbo that really has the water hooked up? NONE, but they got a $200.00 turbo timmer which is 1/millionth as good at preventing coke build up.

Sure the K is nice what does it come in DOHC VTEC-i? um right two cars: RSX-S and TSX, what are the production number of these cars? How many will be stolen to provide organ donations to Civics? VS the tC, Camry, Rav4, on and on with a 2A engine. So sure it has power but um comes in two limit production cars from $25,000 to $30,000 not what I'd call chump change. Needless to say I'm correct and that one year of Toyota production is far greater then ALL years of DOHC VTEC and the already inplace 2A engine has a far larger user base. Meaning in a very short while all companies that want to stay afloat will have to have a 2A performance products.

I'm sure the Honda crowd will be alive and kicking with 95%of them sporting a D engine, CAI, fart pipe and 120 WHP on the best day. Then 2% will actually own a 2006 Civic SI, and 2% will own a JDM K series AKA stolen from the city next door. Yeh some market there. Huge but

Look the ZPI log has 1/10 the welds and is 1/10 the tube so I would expect 1/100 the cracking problems due to expansion and / or harmonic resonance. I've said at leas 20 times on this board that I prefer cast iron turbo manifolds, and I'll say it again. I prefer cast iron turbo exhaust manifolds, call me old fashion.

To put it in the nutshell there is ONE good Honda engine and it comes right now today in two low production cars from $25,000 to $32,000. While the 2A comes in a $16,000 scion and offers near enough performance. How much HP is the RSX making um ZPI is saying I'll get 240 WHP for $2400 meaning a tC sub $20,000 can be at 240 WHP.. Here is the Rev kit at 6.5 PSI for the RSX-S and it is um pathetic. 254 WHP and only 199 ft lbs to the wheels very peaky torque too!!! vs the ZPI intercooled kit at 340 WHP and 360 ft lbs for near flat torque.

http://www.revhard.com/dynosheets.asp#RSXTurboKit

For grins you can look at the econo VTEC Civic SI kit above it that puts out way way more and flatter torque. So much for VTEC...

 

i guess I should take pics of the numorous 99-00 Si's around town with turbos, AC, sound deadening, and paint of one color that run low 11-12s. Or the turbo GSRs with AC, turbo, all one color paint, or the h22a turbos with AC, sound deadening, all the same paint.

You think that because I have a weekend warrior, ALLLLLLL hondas have to be that way.

You can easily tell the JDM K20 engines, the engine code is different and they ahve a 4.9 final drive, which is very easy to tell, but you know best and I know nothing.

I recently tuned a stock 98 Civic EX with the D16 in it. GT28rs, ran 84mph in the 1/8th. Not bad for a d-series.

 

http://www.hondata.com/dynok20a2cybernationstg1.html

You can tell that this "tuned" turbo K20 has a average of 215 ft-lbs ENGINE which is about 185 ft lbs wheel

Honda guys always gotta say PEAK HP cause there ain't much under peak.

Yea I can really see the market for VTEC trubo Hondas: buy a car, buy stolen engine, turbo and race it. I'm sure they are all fully streetable cars..... Sorry whey you gotta swap the whole powertrain just to get any sort of performance you kind of lost me on the "car" subject.

Oh and I should mention the tC has SO much room for a turbo while the RSX-S needs a trained asbestos octapus to work on it, don't see many of them around do you

 

http://www.hondata.com/dynok20a2stockvsk20amodded.html

also it takes a little more then um a tune and header for 200 WHP. That is a whole list of stuff on a race engine and even with that it can't equal a stock tC in wheel torque, you know the thing that moves a car down the street and powers the A/C? All a moot point as there are few indeed RSX-S or TSX, I'm sure with my stage 0, the few that I meet are in for a MAJOR spanking... 260 ft-lbs of flat torque for my tC vs 140 ft-lbs of peaky torque for the RSX.