so we are now comparing a turbocharged tC to a stock k20a? seems reasonable.

If all you need is torque to run fast, than I have no clue how so many turbo hondas are in the 11s as most have under 300wlbs of torque, where there is one tC with a turbo kit with over 300wlbs and still not in the 11s. interesting.

 

What? Read the link that is a TURBO RSX-S at 185 ft-lbs wheel

No I would figure in your sans A/C stripped out 2200 lbs "CAR" you don't need much torque. But um my street driven A/C Car does indeed need and use toruqe to move me down the road. Like I've said VTEC guys can only talk bling and peak HP, and how fast their tin can drag queen is. Great. In the near future my turbo tC will be taking down Mustangs in street fights.

No come back for a drivetrain that first needs to be stolen out of an Acura and then shoved into a Civic, toss out the A/C and wow it makes an OK drag queen, and the world is somehow impressed. Oh but I got a bling bling turbo header there and it almost makes 200 ft-lbs at 6500 RPM

Since you can't even read the topic which says equal length turbo tubes and can't even read where I listed engines that could use one: B18C DOHC VTEC . Seems pointless to continue as I think most of know what a turbo Civic with stolen Acura engine is like. Most of know that the long runner equal length bling bling manifold is not goint to take 5000 heat cycles or a splash of ice and rain water after being run red hot.. Go figure why OEM and large kit builders pick simple manifolds... casue their customers need to get to work on Monday morning with said manifold, and could careless about 15 more WHP that an equal lenght manifold may get them.

 

I am not arguing honda or scion or EL header or not, but I have noticed that so many people treat torque and HP as two completely different things. You MUST have a combination of RPM AND torque in order to produce HP, so they are much more closely related than many seem to treat them.

 

oldman,

i thougth this was a debate, are we resorting to name calling and childishness? You are now calling me a thief, saying I stolen an engine to put into my car. I guess when all else fails just start calling names right.

You are telling me honda's don't make torque, you are correct sir, but i'll we reemphasize i don't need a large amount of torque to have my car run fast. That's the general point. You are saying that all i want is bling and a stripped out car. My car doesn't have AC or PS and now its a stripped out drag queen, I have seating for four easily in the car. Just because I choose to drive a G35c everyday doesn't mean i can't drive the hatch daily. It does get over 30mpg, so its not hard on my pocket book.

You act like the only way to get a honda to go fast is taht you have to remove AC, you have to swap engines. So not true, I posted that I tuned a 100% stock D-series with a tubular manifold, with a gt28r turbo, AC, PS, it ran 84mph in the 1/8th. that's faster than the stage 0 kit scion did. WHY was it able to do this without having a stolen engine, a log manifold and 400wlbs of torque? The car has around 215whp and maybe 180wlbs.

I saw the original thread and debate between turbo2liter where you said there are tubular manifolds are not worth it and will always crack. I posted up one reply that simply said, here are two different tests which showed a good HP increase from moving from a tubular log manifold to a tubular manifold. Then you started on your honda bashing. I'm sorry your spent alot of money on your honda and it never went fast enough.

Just because you had something stolen don't get all ____ed at the world trying to make your point. I'm trying to be civil hear without the need for 10 smilies next to all of my sentences.

OEM companies and large aftermarket distributors make cast manifolds because it lessens thier risk of failures. If a tubular manifold, either my big tubular one, or your tubular log manifold doesn't have enouth penetration when welding they will crack. Both your manifold and mine were made from the exact same material bought from exactly the same place. They are both made of 8 gauge stainless Steel piping with 308 filler rod used. Assuming they are welded correctly they both won't crack.

I look forward your reply calling me names, endless smilies and pointing out that there are not gains from log to tubular manifolds. Although you yourslef have said there are gains and have said how cast manifolds are the best, you aren't even following your own advice. I guess its more of a do as I say, not how I do sort of thing. FYI, i tuned a h22a with a t3/t4 57 trim this weekend, we tried our best to melt the turbine blades but the dame thing wouldn't. It spooled at 2500rpms and stayed at full boost til 8200rpms.

 

you guys are way off topic.. why don't ya just start sending personal messages

 

Sceen4ever wrote Sorry dude, you going to have to find me a cut and paste on that one. I did speculate a very small % of 2006 up Civics will have K series engines, and that a smaller % of those Civics will have stole engines, since you own neither the car nor the engine, you lost me on the subject of total market demand which clearly favors the 2A Toyota.


Sceen4ever wrote Thank you, and it is torque in a normal streetdriven car that moves it down the street powers the A/C and allows a more reasonable gear ratio. That is why my Camaro can get close to 30 MPG on the highway and cruse at 65 MPH at 1700 RPM. It is call torque and torque is what moves the car.

Sceen4ever wrote Torque is not needed to move a sans A/C 2200 lbs Civic down the ¼ mile. I just don’t define such a vehicle as a “car”. Since this is um a tC forum which is a near 3000 lbs car with A/C and can sit 5, having some torque is indeed a significant issue.

How is this related to the topic? Simple we have seen the dyno graphs and realize these equal length turbo headers don’t make any power or torque at all bellow 4200 RPM or so, so they can make more peak, anywhere from 3 WHP to 15 WHP as a guestimate on a tC. That HP increase will be above the range where a tC will be driven as a car 99.9% of the time. So it is not only the lack of power gain from the equal length turbo header, it is the range where the gain is produced at least for a street driven car.

Sceen4ever wrote That is great, I can’t rember the last time I’ve seen a fast D Honda, they seem to fall into the 17 second or above range of life. I’ve seen quite a few with FI into the low 16s. Does that mean they are ALL slow? Dunno, but it does mean that small engines with VTEC as a whole don’t seem to be performing as well as BIG engines that will be soon gaining a turbo.

Sceen4ever wrote Once again I don’t think I have used the words “always” I would say that the longer the tube and the more complex the bend, there is more tendency to crack. I’m glad that you posted a gain over a log. I you have bothered to read the post, I’ve clearly indicated that I’m talking about a Camry cam engine sub 10 PSI. I’ve clearly stated that gains could be found on a VTEC B18C type of setup. So you find a Honda VTEC DOHC with 1 WHP “gain” and wow that just shows that a Camry cam sub 10 PSI engine will gain almost as much. The first “gain” of 56 BHP was also on a DOHC VTEC and I’ve already said the original run was sandbagged, and followed with two vendor dyno showing a B18c makes far more then 250 BHP with 10 PSI of boost and log manifold. Is there a gain going to equal length turbo headers with a DOHC VTEC, why yes there are, how much is subject to speculation, how much will this same setup give a tC sub 10 PSI and stock cams (you know the subject of the thread) is even more speculative and I think we can all agree on anywhere from 3 to 15 WHP is a legitimate ball park.

To sum it up: stock cam, sub 10 PSI Camry cam engine, full exhaust one would expect to see anywhere from 3 to 15 WHP when going from a log to an equal length turbo header, from worst to best and that there are many in between setups that should offer in between power gains. Is this fair enough? The cost will be about $1000.00 over a log / cast log / cast flow improved log etc and that in general there will be more chance of some sort of fitment or cracking issues.


Sceen4ever wrote I would also assume that my way smaller, way simpler manifold presents far less places to crack hence as an overall unit would be subject to far less cracking. I would also say that you assume cracking is ONLY due to welding, while I think it is due to expansion, heat, rapid temperature changes and vibration, ALL of which rapidly increase with the size and complexity of the manifold; rendering your one dimensional failure regime useless in predicting which manifold will fail and when.


Sceen4ever wrote Once gain you seem confused on what an equal length tubular turbo header is and why it is not worth getting one on a low boost, Camry cam, tC.

 

there's your copy and paste.



I just wanted to post some smilies.

why do you keep going on about a car that has AC removed. Most cars I tune run standalone, within them i have a present that turns off AC above 5000rpms or 35% trottle, torque isn't needed to move them. If you get above the criteria, the AC disables for the moment, just the AC compressor, fan is still blowing and frankly the driver has no clue its off, other than not having the drag of the AC being on. You stereotype the ____ out of hondas. In order for them to be fast they have to have no ac and be a stripped drag car. Also in that log vs tubular manifold, i don't know where you saw bhp, but those were straight WHP numbers. you assume that the car is sandbagged just based off another website where a car was running full timing advance, IE 31 degrees of timing in boost, as the revhard kit only had a FMU setup and a missing link. The full-race test is between two cars with a standalone to safely adjust timing and fuel. So yes a car running an FMU and full timing advance may have a few more HP but it will blow up faster than ____.

 

^^^ I still don't see how oldman directly called you a thief.

I'm still trying to figure out the point seen4ever is trying to make. You're still are trying to make a point about tubular manifolds and oldman has NOT disagreed with you. On a weekend "race" engine, it will benefit, on a street machine spending most of the time at low boost, there is little-to-no difference. Is there something I'm missing?

ZPI:
Stage 0 & 1: Log Manifold = lifetime warranty
Stage 2: Tube manifold = 5 year warranty

I'd be happier with the lifetime warranty.

 

I guess I took it as he said a tubular manifold has no benefits unless you have a high cam engine. I think there will be a good benefit.

Maybe i over-reacted about the theif thing, but after he said my turbine blades are going to melt, my car WILL be stolen, i just assumed he was saying i stole my engine too.

does anyone have a stage 2 turbo kit? Just noticed everyone has stage 0,1 and 3. wtf happened to 2?

 

question.. how is racing a honda like entering the special olympics?



























answer: even if you win you're still retarded!!


haha ok you guys go back to bickering

 

I'm going to launch off idle and race your beloved stage 23 tC and get it on video, very soon.

 

Now be nice, AWD is not a fair game playing card in this "debate" ;)

I am not building a dragster so have no real need for super car power but am considering AWD in the next year or two, a fairly big undertaking but nothing that cannot be done(already have some measurements done

Rick

 

seen4ever, what can I say your post has collapsed into confusion, maybe you need coffee and get back to me. There is only one post on a Honda comparing a log to an equal length tubular, the dynopak is listed on the graph as ENGINE HP. I for one don’t think it is “normal” for a 10 PSI boosted B18c to put out 250 ENGINE HP or about 215 WHP, hence my speculation that the baseline dyno was sandbagged, a common technique to show how much “better” the $1000 equal length header is.


Engineer, yes torque and HP are related, but when I say the engine has no torque, I mean the average torque through the range is substantially below what one would expect based on PEAK HP numbers. The Honda engines above are all good examples of this 340 engine HP and 220 engine ft-lbs vs say a ZPI kit of 380 engine HP and 360 ft-lbs. Sure WOT, ¼ mile with a Banzai rev it up slip the clutch launch uses ONLY HP, but a daily drive to and fro is using TORQUE and even though both engines will be quick down the ¼ mile, only one is “driveable” in normal operating mode.

Back to Tech why does a equal length turbo header work?

1) it isolates the pulse of the exhaust a full 720 degrees i.e. the charge has its own pipe. While a log isolates the 180 degrees. Meaning on a small cam that flows say 220 degrees there is 20 degrees of flow fighting, on a large cam like a Type R there maybe 280 degrees of flow or fully 50 degrees of flow fighting (where two ports are flowing at the same time). It is easy to see why the larger cam likes an isolated equal length turbo header as it has MORE then twice the flow overlap.

2) P/R a race or high performance street engine runs a 2:1 P/R and is usually uncapped after that or has a very free flow exhaust. A street car has a P/R of 4:1. Meaning the exhaust plus of a race engine has far less static high pressure air in the manifold, less restriction per PSI of boost from the turbo and less restriction via back pressure from the exhaust. All meaning that a race car will show more benefits from a large smooth equal length turbo header, in the exact same fashion that a NA race engine shows with large equal length header vs a street car.

3) As discussed above MUCH of this gain can be found with a nice flowed or countered log type manifold either cast or tube. I prefer a cast.

4) the smaller the cam and the lower the boost and the higher the P/R the smaller the power gain from a equal length turbo header.

 

I was actually referring more to seen4evers references to torque and HP above. Take note that I am not in the least trying to take sides, as you both have made some valid points. I am a huge fan of torquey motors and their ability to produce low end HP, which is especially important on the street. I dont have much use for a street car that hits its peak HP at 7000 rpm and has little HP off the line. I prefer to have the larger T in the HP = (T * RPM)/5252 equation. So it does depend on application. Risking being pulled into the debate though, the exhaust builders I have spoken with and read articles by agree on one thing: tubular headers are great, equal length makes very little difference relatively. On a race car, these tiny differences are more important. On a street racer they become lost in the wash of other variables. Collector length and proper sizing (not too big or two small) ofthe piping play much more crucial roles than having exact length headers if you look at the physics involved in the entire process.

There is my input. I do not wish to turn this into a bigger argument, which is why I have waited so long to add much at all. I do not claim to be be an exhaust guru by any means either.

 

Those are WHP numbers, Jeff just has the titles setup strange. You will say i'm lying, but I know Jeff, he runs an independent shop out of PA. he runs a full-race kit, but in no way is he a vendor from them or sell thier products, he tunes cars. I know his car put down 308whp at 10psi,

either way, debating with you is like talking to my wife during her red flag time, inrelevant facts are always brought up and over dramatized. I'll point out something, you will come back that I have stripped down sans AC car. I will point out that there are many turbo cars with AC that do just fine, you will point out i have a stripped down drag car sans AC. or you will say that its impossible to drive my car as the turbo is melting.

My daily driver probably has more torque than my honda, regardless of the fact, if i push down on the pedal in my G35c it goes, but no where near as fast as my honda does or many of the turbo honda with ac and leather interior. Sure torque is great downlow to push you back in the seat, but having a high gear ratio helps considerably.

but really, i wasn't trying for a 10 page drama debate about who's car will be stolen first. I was just posting two different dyno graphs which showed two different cars benefitting. You said they were jokes, i don't think they were.

 

Well the graph says "flywheel" so I would say either your Vendor is either a fool or incompitent. Thus one can conclude that the HP is sandbagged.

oh and surge that cause a blade to melt off happends in low to medium boost, low flow conditions know as "normal driving" so you can beat on the car all you want and never see surge Try have the GF drive it for a week and let me know if the turbo is still in once piece, that is if she likes a car with no A/C.

You must lose alot when debating with the GF

 

i drove the car to and from nashville last year, a constant high to low vacuum or 1-2psi depending on hills and during that entire 3hr trip, the turbo never melted. Then we proceeded to drive around town in stop and go without hammering, turbo didn't melt.

I tuned a t3/t67 turbo'd GSR a few months back, he drives it daily, i called him yesterday and asked if his turbo had melted yet, he said it hadn't.

i dropped the GF years ago, i'm married old man, read the post, i clearly state, arguing with you is like arguing with my wife.

hey look, when all else fails, what did you go off and spout off about, lack of AC again. imagine that. i don't think you know as much as you claim, you honestly think all big turbo hondas melt off thier turbine blades due to hitting the surge limit. I've been around soo many big turbo hondas that are driven daily and are used to get across town, zero have had turbos melt.

you are right, Jeff Evans is a fool and incompetent. I think you should talk to him directly, http://www.boosted-hybrid.com

make sure to tell him that big turbos on honda will melt and that hondas aren't able to go anywhere because if they are turbo they much be a stripped down drag car sans AC.

 

all I want to add is that when I dyno, we read power to the tires, not flywheel. I'd hate to think of what my car makes at the crank, as it has put down 560+ to the tires on 26 lbs and C16.

...on a Revhard log mani and an SC61.

 

and it's daily driven on 14-20 lbs, on pump gas, making just under 350 to the tires.

that is sans AC and PS, but I'll trade them both to run down a GSXR-750 from a 40 kick.

 

hasn't you turbo melted off yet? I know my car made 355whp last year and my turbo hadn't melted off yet.