Quaife LSD
09-23-2005, 02:02 AM
#41
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09-23-2005, 02:38 AM
#42
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just a warning before you all go with the less costly product. the phantom grip really isnt a LSD. it modifies your factory differential to act like a LSD. its proven to be relativly effective at mimicking the actions of a true LSD but this also puts alot of strain on your factory differential. i would suggest spending the extra money for the quaife if you plan to be rough with your drivetrain. and just remember...you get what you pay for.
09-23-2005, 02:50 AM
#43
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dex,
I appreciate your concern but have ask, where to you get your info from? The reason I ask is because I have heard this same thing or a variation of numerous times on different forums and the only thing I ever get in response is a he said, she said, nothing substantiated line of bull.
Not saying you are doing this, just asking for something to back up this statement. I have had great luck with them myself and have met many others that have as well.
Recently I had a shop finally tell me they have had two issues with cars they personally were involved in. But, they said they were both very high powered cars and they knew of no issues with moderately powered ones. By very high powered I take it they were referring to something far beyond what we can do with our cars since their shop Supra puts down 1,100 whp and they build twin turbo LS1's etc, etc. I would imagine a 300WHP tC is not very high powered to them;)
So please give us something to go on here, I really have asked alot of people about the PG and never had one single substantiated story, out of just a few as they all sound exactly the same, of anything I would bet on.
Just because it is cheap, does not mean it really is;)
Rick
I appreciate your concern but have ask, where to you get your info from? The reason I ask is because I have heard this same thing or a variation of numerous times on different forums and the only thing I ever get in response is a he said, she said, nothing substantiated line of bull.
Not saying you are doing this, just asking for something to back up this statement. I have had great luck with them myself and have met many others that have as well.
Recently I had a shop finally tell me they have had two issues with cars they personally were involved in. But, they said they were both very high powered cars and they knew of no issues with moderately powered ones. By very high powered I take it they were referring to something far beyond what we can do with our cars since their shop Supra puts down 1,100 whp and they build twin turbo LS1's etc, etc. I would imagine a 300WHP tC is not very high powered to them;)
So please give us something to go on here, I really have asked alot of people about the PG and never had one single substantiated story, out of just a few as they all sound exactly the same, of anything I would bet on.
Just because it is cheap, does not mean it really is;)
Rick
09-23-2005, 03:43 AM
#44
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Well Dex you are totally off base here. The phantom grip LSD is already in a 12 second car and seems to hold up pretty well. The Scion Speed 12 second tC has a phantom grip LSD in it. Now if the LSD can handle that kind of power. On a street legal tC it should be plenty. AND just remember you get what you payfor. IF you arn't gonna drive your tC to where it would NEED a costly differential like a quafie. Why spend the money when you can get an effective LSD for hundreds of dollars cheaper for you Daily driver. The quafie LSD is nice, but if you are not going to use your car in professional auto X its not needed. In amature auto X and daily driving grocery getter. the phantom grip LSD is just fine. Your statement is really biased and you are only pointing out the flaws in any LSD other than a gear/torsion based LSD instead of listing the Pros/cons of all types of LSDs. Even a 300 whp tC will do fine with a phantom grip LSD.
09-23-2005, 05:11 AM
#45
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By the way, we have a Phantom Grip LSD waiting to go into our soon to be turbo tC as well We are investing somewhere around $20k in mods to our car and would most certainly spend the extra money on a higher cost LSD if we felt we needed to.
Our car will be ran in all the events listed in our posts, on full race tires and see alot of stress, no worries about the PG at all
Rick
We are investing somewhere around $20k in mods to our car and would most certainly spend the extra money on a higher cost LSD if we felt we needed to. Our car will be ran in all the events listed in our posts, on full race tires and see alot of stress, no worries about the PG at all
Rick
09-23-2005, 06:28 AM
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I am a bit torn about gearing now. I autocrossed a couple of weeks back, fairly fast course layout, well into third gear on two sections. The only time I used first was at the start and I could run in second, even out of the tight turns very well due to the good bottom end pull from 2.4 liter motor.
When I was running my Matrix I had to shift to first on those turns and you know how fun that is, then boost would kick in and I would be spinning both front tires out of the turns.
I would also run out of revs more often in second so I ended up shifting alot during an autocross. Trying to drive quickly with a boosted car having to shift all the time is quite the handfull.
The tC is much easier to drive fast, in fact once race tires are on and the rest of the handling bits(installing the CF/Kevlar roof right now), etc, are on it should be at least as fast as the trubo matrix before I even turbo it.
I would like taller gearing for the highway and for road courses but for autox, it is really great the way it is, sure is good for drags is seems as well, hmmmmm, what to do!
Rick
When I was running my Matrix I had to shift to first on those turns and you know how fun that is, then boost would kick in and I would be spinning both front tires out of the turns.
I would also run out of revs more often in second so I ended up shifting alot during an autocross. Trying to drive quickly with a boosted car having to shift all the time is quite the handfull.
The tC is much easier to drive fast, in fact once race tires are on and the rest of the handling bits(installing the CF/Kevlar roof right now), etc, are on it should be at least as fast as the trubo matrix before I even turbo it.
I would like taller gearing for the highway and for road courses but for autox, it is really great the way it is, sure is good for drags is seems as well, hmmmmm, what to do!
Rick
09-24-2005, 03:40 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by raamaudio
dex,
I appreciate your concern but have ask, where to you get your info from? The reason I ask is because I have heard this same thing or a variation of numerous times on different forums and the only thing I ever get in response is a he said, she said, nothing substantiated line of bull.
Not saying you are doing this, just asking for something to back up this statement. I have had great luck with them myself and have met many others that have as well.
Recently I had a shop finally tell me they have had two issues with cars they personally were involved in. But, they said they were both very high powered cars and they knew of no issues with moderately powered ones. By very high powered I take it they were referring to something far beyond what we can do with our cars since their shop Supra puts down 1,100 whp and they build twin turbo LS1's etc, etc. I would imagine a 300WHP tC is not very high powered to them;)
So please give us something to go on here, I really have asked alot of people about the PG and never had one single substantiated story, out of just a few as they all sound exactly the same, of anything I would bet on.
Just because it is cheap, does not mean it really is;)
Rick
I appreciate your concern but have ask, where to you get your info from? The reason I ask is because I have heard this same thing or a variation of numerous times on different forums and the only thing I ever get in response is a he said, she said, nothing substantiated line of bull.
Not saying you are doing this, just asking for something to back up this statement. I have had great luck with them myself and have met many others that have as well.
Recently I had a shop finally tell me they have had two issues with cars they personally were involved in. But, they said they were both very high powered cars and they knew of no issues with moderately powered ones. By very high powered I take it they were referring to something far beyond what we can do with our cars since their shop Supra puts down 1,100 whp and they build twin turbo LS1's etc, etc. I would imagine a 300WHP tC is not very high powered to them;)
So please give us something to go on here, I really have asked alot of people about the PG and never had one single substantiated story, out of just a few as they all sound exactly the same, of anything I would bet on.
Just because it is cheap, does not mean it really is;)
Rick
Originally Posted by TimmyT
Well Dex you are totally off base here. The phantom grip LSD is already in a 12 second car and seems to hold up pretty well. The Scion Speed 12 second tC has a phantom grip LSD in it. Now if the LSD can handle that kind of power. On a street legal tC it should be plenty. AND just remember you get what you payfor. IF you arn't gonna drive your tC to where it would NEED a costly differential like a quafie. Why spend the money when you can get an effective LSD for hundreds of dollars cheaper for you Daily driver. The quafie LSD is nice, but if you are not going to use your car in professional auto X its not needed. In amature auto X and daily driving grocery getter. the phantom grip LSD is just fine. Your statement is really biased and you are only pointing out the flaws in any LSD other than a gear/torsion based LSD instead of listing the Pros/cons of all types of LSDs. Even a 300 whp tC will do fine with a phantom grip LSD.
09-24-2005, 04:29 AM
#50
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You have some very valid points.
I have a different perspective because we are not building a daily driver and expect to break a few things here and there.
Our car will see some road use going to and from events, most of those events will see some really hard core use of the whole car, if the differential fails, so be it, we can accept that responsibility. We also do all our own work so the cost is very minimal, used trannies will be dirt cheap since they so seldom break. Even the engine is cheap if we blow it up so not a concern for us at all.
BUT, I ran the crap out of my car with the PG, 250WHP, 235 R compound tires, very very hard use, now the tranny is in a buddies car and works perfectly. That is pretty good evidence it will last quite some time to me
There was an internet rumor of a blown tranny caused by the PG, I searched it down and the story was always the same thing, some guy modified one to fit his car, a unit not designed for his, he had a monster motor in it, diff blew, blammed it on the PG. Now was it the PG, the power that took out the diff, his mechanical abilities at fault, how old was the tranny, was it a known weak model, etc, etc. I never could get a straight answer.
When you have gotten info from locals, what kind of info, can you be more specific?
Please understand I am not trying to pick a fight, pick on you, etc, etc. I truely want to know the facts because it is important and we all need to know for our benifit. Either we need to know the units are really bad, which I highly doubt, or if the unsubstantiated rumors being spread are false and misleading people into spending more money than they should on an LSD or going without because they cannot afford an expesive unit.
I have already made up my mind, my unit will be in next week when I can make some time to install it, I am not worried in the least and it something does go wrong, I will deal with it. I am concerned for others on the forum, I want for them to know which way to go, what to believe and if at all possible to have something as valuable to true performance as an LSD at an affordable rate
Rick
I have a different perspective because we are not building a daily driver and expect to break a few things here and there.
Our car will see some road use going to and from events, most of those events will see some really hard core use of the whole car, if the differential fails, so be it, we can accept that responsibility. We also do all our own work so the cost is very minimal, used trannies will be dirt cheap since they so seldom break. Even the engine is cheap if we blow it up so not a concern for us at all.
BUT, I ran the crap out of my car with the PG, 250WHP, 235 R compound tires, very very hard use, now the tranny is in a buddies car and works perfectly. That is pretty good evidence it will last quite some time to me
There was an internet rumor of a blown tranny caused by the PG, I searched it down and the story was always the same thing, some guy modified one to fit his car, a unit not designed for his, he had a monster motor in it, diff blew, blammed it on the PG. Now was it the PG, the power that took out the diff, his mechanical abilities at fault, how old was the tranny, was it a known weak model, etc, etc. I never could get a straight answer.
When you have gotten info from locals, what kind of info, can you be more specific?
Please understand I am not trying to pick a fight, pick on you, etc, etc. I truely want to know the facts because it is important and we all need to know for our benifit. Either we need to know the units are really bad, which I highly doubt, or if the unsubstantiated rumors being spread are false and misleading people into spending more money than they should on an LSD or going without because they cannot afford an expesive unit.
I have already made up my mind, my unit will be in next week when I can make some time to install it, I am not worried in the least and it something does go wrong, I will deal with it. I am concerned for others on the forum, I want for them to know which way to go, what to believe and if at all possible to have something as valuable to true performance as an LSD at an affordable rate
Rick
09-24-2005, 04:29 AM
#51
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Dex, you slap in a turbo into your car and the car life is gonna be reduced Cause there are no aftermarket internals for the tC yet. And the point is the phantomgrip LSD is proven, because although people would like to dream they had a 400 whp tC as thier daily driver. 99% of us won't. If you have the cash great. but don't deter people from buying a phantom grip by implying its gonna crap out thier tranny. Quafie hasn't even released thier differential, so How do you know it won't in someway crap out the tranny? and please say "cause its a quafie".
09-24-2005, 02:22 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by TimmyT
The phantom grip LSD is already in a 12 second car and seems to hold up pretty well. The Scion Speed 12 second tC has a phantom grip LSD in it. Now if the LSD can handle that kind of power.
09-24-2005, 05:19 PM
#54
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Make shift, would you be so kind as to post where this information is coming from, there is no mention on thier website, possibly posts on some forums would suffice. If you are going to make such statements please give us something to substantiate it with. I have looked, cannot find anything stating they do this.
Rick
Rick
09-24-2005, 09:17 PM
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09-25-2005, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TimmyT
Dex, you slap in a turbo into your car and the car life is gonna be reduced Cause there are no aftermarket internals for the tC yet. And the point is the phantomgrip LSD is proven, because although people would like to dream they had a 400 whp tC as thier daily driver. 99% of us won't. If you have the cash great. but don't deter people from buying a phantom grip by implying its gonna crap out thier tranny. Quafie hasn't even released thier differential, so How do you know it won't in someway crap out the tranny? and please say "cause its a quafie".
The problem lies in what long term effects this will have on the stock transmission. When one has a daily driver, one is more concerned with reliability than performance. The spider gears in the transmission were never designed with the load of a limited slip insert like the phantom grip in mind pushing against them. Further, what happens when the phantom grip is in operation when it is slipping? There is no friction material like that in a clutch based limited slip unit. The metal of the spider gear and the blocks of the phantom grip is what is wearing away. So you are left with small metal particles in the transmission. That is definitely not good when one is talking about long term reliability.
So, the question is, is the very low amount of limited slip locking torque from the phantom grip worth the potentially massive tradeoff of transmission and/or rear end longevity?
Not on a daily driver.
Considering that Quaife LSDs have been used as a factory option on many cars, including the SRT-4 and Cobalt SS, it is perfectly acceptable to predict that it will be a reliable unit. The basic design does not change between different applications. Considering all the different limited slip differential designs and weighing the pro / cons of each, the torsen type that Quaife uses offers the most benefits with the least drawbacks.
For a listing of all types and their advantages / disadvantages, this site offers excellent information:
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm
09-25-2005, 11:22 AM
#60
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The phantom grip is just two pieces of steel with a set of springs that push the two pieces apart against the spider gears within the stock differential. When one wheel loses traction, the phantom grip transfers some torque to the slipping side. This amount is determined by the force of the springs pushing the two blocks against the spider gears.
--Correct
The problem lies in what long term effects this will have on the stock transmission. When one has a daily driver, one is more concerned with reliability than performance.
--They have sold a great deal of these over the years, only stories I have ever heard of a problem with was on super high powered cars, of course they are much harder on everything though;)
The spider gears in the transmission were never designed with the load of a limited slip insert like the phantom grip in mind pushing against them.
--True but Toyota builds some very tough diffs
Further, what happens when the phantom grip is in operation when it is slipping? There is no friction material like that in a clutch based limited slip unit. The metal of the spider gear and the blocks of the phantom grip is what is wearing away. So you are left with small metal particles in the transmission. That is definitely not good when one is talking about long term reliability.
--Have you seen this in person? Do you know what the blocks are machined from? Did you consider the lube it runs in continually? We use Redline ourselves.
So, the question is, is the very low amount of limited slip locking torque from the phantom grip worth the potentially massive tradeoff of transmission and/or rear end longevity?
--How low, do you know this as well? They built ours to handle the power we will be running, stiffer springs is all it takes.
Not on a daily driver.
--Your choice
Considering that Quaife LSDs have been used as a factory option on many cars, including the SRT-4 and Cobalt SS, it is perfectly acceptable to predict that it will be a reliable unit. The basic design does not change between different applications. Considering all the different limited slip differential designs and weighing the pro / cons of each, the torsen type that Quaife uses offers the most benefits with the least drawbacks.
--Still has some issues with engagement like all LSDs do, the phantom grip is seamless in operation. We installed a gear driven unit in our Tacoma and on occasion it can act rather unpleasantly but most of the time is fine, does whine alot on deceleration though with Redline lube.
--We are also considering a very sophisticated traction control system for our car to fully utilize the power we will be developing on an autocross course. The PG worked just fine on our 250WHP turbo Matrix but we are going to run more with the tC and have even stiffer competition now.
For a listing of all types and their advantages / disadvantages, this site offers excellent information:
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm[/quote]
--Yes, good read, thanks
--You have said alot against the Phantom Grip but have not pointed out any facts, real life experiences, pics of damaged or worn parts, verifiable failures, etc. I know there have been a few, the only ones in the three years I have been using PG that I can verifiy at all where two super high powered cars, far beyond anything we will ever see in a tC with the stock based motor and tranny in it. That is it, alot of blind unfaith;)
--Again, as said dozens of times in the past, show us some real evidence and we will listen
--Correct
The problem lies in what long term effects this will have on the stock transmission. When one has a daily driver, one is more concerned with reliability than performance.
--They have sold a great deal of these over the years, only stories I have ever heard of a problem with was on super high powered cars, of course they are much harder on everything though;)
The spider gears in the transmission were never designed with the load of a limited slip insert like the phantom grip in mind pushing against them.
--True but Toyota builds some very tough diffs
Further, what happens when the phantom grip is in operation when it is slipping? There is no friction material like that in a clutch based limited slip unit. The metal of the spider gear and the blocks of the phantom grip is what is wearing away. So you are left with small metal particles in the transmission. That is definitely not good when one is talking about long term reliability.
--Have you seen this in person? Do you know what the blocks are machined from? Did you consider the lube it runs in continually? We use Redline ourselves.
So, the question is, is the very low amount of limited slip locking torque from the phantom grip worth the potentially massive tradeoff of transmission and/or rear end longevity?
--How low, do you know this as well? They built ours to handle the power we will be running, stiffer springs is all it takes.
Not on a daily driver.
--Your choice
Considering that Quaife LSDs have been used as a factory option on many cars, including the SRT-4 and Cobalt SS, it is perfectly acceptable to predict that it will be a reliable unit. The basic design does not change between different applications. Considering all the different limited slip differential designs and weighing the pro / cons of each, the torsen type that Quaife uses offers the most benefits with the least drawbacks.
--Still has some issues with engagement like all LSDs do, the phantom grip is seamless in operation. We installed a gear driven unit in our Tacoma and on occasion it can act rather unpleasantly but most of the time is fine, does whine alot on deceleration though with Redline lube.
--We are also considering a very sophisticated traction control system for our car to fully utilize the power we will be developing on an autocross course. The PG worked just fine on our 250WHP turbo Matrix but we are going to run more with the tC and have even stiffer competition now.
For a listing of all types and their advantages / disadvantages, this site offers excellent information:
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm[/quote]
--Yes, good read, thanks
--You have said alot against the Phantom Grip but have not pointed out any facts, real life experiences, pics of damaged or worn parts, verifiable failures, etc. I know there have been a few, the only ones in the three years I have been using PG that I can verifiy at all where two super high powered cars, far beyond anything we will ever see in a tC with the stock based motor and tranny in it. That is it, alot of blind unfaith;)
--Again, as said dozens of times in the past, show us some real evidence and we will listen