raamaudio

I appologize if I offend anyone here but just have to say this as it is the real truth about something being talked about a great deal lately, torque dampers, etc.

They can work ok up to a certain point and definately are "Look at Me Item" though a bit more subtle than others.

There is a better performing, practically no cost, practically zero weight gain, way to get better results that takes a bit more effort and time but still not a difficult mod by any means.

I have talked about this a bit here and there on other threads and made a fairly long post just today but started this thread as many may not have seen it.

I have been modding imports for over 37 years now and have always been a DIY, backyard mechanic, find the best method for the lowest cost, etc, kind of guy and had alot of success in doing so. I will be the first to buy a superior product I cannot create myself, this is not one of them!

No onto the story here, about aftermarket torque dampers(etc)

"For a modest power increase, i.e. NA use, they can be quite good but still not the best as do not stop all the movement, just some of it and slow things down a bit as well. "

NOTE: On the tC, as many FWD cars, the side motor mounts actually carry most of the weight and they are a pivot point the motor swings on causing the issues with shifting, wheel hope, they are pretty significant power robbers. The lower mounts in the front and rear basically limit the travel, which is quite substantial as my turbo Matrix(almost identical layout) demonstrated on the many dyno runs it went through, the wheels would move back nearly 2.5"!)

Trying to limit or at least slow down the swing of the motor/tranny by incorporating a device on the top of the motor is not the most effective place to do such a thing. There is not much height above the pivot point, not alot of leverage there. Well below the pivot point would be more effective but there is less visibility to see the cool part;) Plus there are fewer places to mount one if built for down low.

I have tried many ways of dealing with this problem with torque dampers, solid and shock type, I spent a considerable amount of money and time, custom machined parts, etc, only to not be satisfied.

What worked, was cheap, took a bit of effort but nothing to shy away from???? Filling in the stock mounts with eurathane, done deal, not more problems, wish I had known sooner. I had to do this because no aftermarket mounts, fillers, etc, where available

"For FI, race tires, etc, just not going to do the trick all that well, I know from experience on other Toyotas that are very similar in design.

I like to cast ours from two part eurathane, Flexane 80 will be our used in ours.

BUT, I did our front one out of eurathane windshield adhesive just to try it out so I could give better feedback to those interested in that approach.

It works but you have to work in a bit at a time so it will cure, if done all at once it will cure on the outside and never harden in the middle. I baked ours for 12 hours straight at 225 degrees and it still did not cure much below the surface. I had to dig it out, let the remaining cure, add more, rub it in down to about 1/8" thick, let it cure a few hours, this took 5 or so additional layers to get it done but the results turned out very well indeed.

I did cut out a bit of the stock rubber so more eurathane could be used.

The mount ended up a bit softer than the Flexane but even just doing the front mount, which is easy to remove and install, works at least as well as other dampers I have seen, we have no wheel hop on 235 pretty sticky street tires and much better shifts and no additional vibration or noise into the cabin.

Not likely to do all we need when we finally go boosted and onrace tires, I am sure it will not suffice for that purpose but doing the rear one will make it just fine.

This was a very low cost mod, only $10.50

Very little added weight, what is added is mounted lower, better handling means less weight and better located. Maybe saving weight on just one part makes little difference but if you take this approach on the whole car, it can add up significantly.

No bling though so maybe not what some may prefer.

To be totally objective it would require a test with a stock car, one with the regular damper and one with eurathane to see how they perform against each other. I have used different types on other cars to different levels, always the same results, just not a controlled test type evaluation.

If I wanted the best I would use eurathane on the front and rear mounts on any car I owned, just have not done our rear one yet as pulling the tranny soon anyway so waiting to do it then.

This is one of most effective practially zero cost performance enhancement you can do to your car. You may have just a bit more vibration and noise, usually just at idle and when taking off from a stop but very marginal if done right, well worth it"

Rick
_________________
tC project getting in gear now! SCCA SM class autocross, drag race, track days on road courses, world championship caliber audio system, plan to race and be very fast with our system installed

Diluvium

umm.. how about a HOW TO thread???

The_Instigator

I dont doubt the performance increase of URETHANE motor mounts,and after having a damper installed for a while and I can attest to the performance increase of a more solidly mounted motor. The only problem is that going through the procedure to remove the mounts, make new ones from scratch and getting them right the first time, and then reinstall them is a pretty involved process that most people arent going to be able to accomplish. Im not saying the damper is perfect, and I personally feel like it is a band-aid to a problem, but it is very effective and easy to install (but time consuming to get adjusted properly). Is it overpriced? Absolutely. Will it give more performance than a CAI mhich costs more? Possibly. Am I unhappy that I bought one? Not at all. In the end, I guess what it comes down to is that the engine damper(s) available do what they do well enough for the majority on here. Id love to see a how-to on making my own mounts, but Im not sure if all the work would give me that much more than what I already have.

ILLCRXSI

people have been using motor mount inserts, window weld, and stiffer mounts in the honda performance world for a long time. i had never even heard of an engine damper until i came on SL. it amazes me that someone would spend so much money on a damper, and it amazes me even more that a company would come out with a damper before motor mount inserts were developed. seems like there would be a lot less R&D for a set of inserts and not only that but they're cheaper and work better.

The_Instigator

Well weaponR already had the dampers available for others cars so it was just a matter of making some brackets to make it fit the car. It didnt take a lot of R&D for them to make it and fabbing up some brakets was probably pretty cheap for them. Im sure making inserts or all new mounts would have cost them more in the long run than modifying an existing product to fit a new applicaition

raamaudio

Just to clarify a critical point. you do not have to make new mounts, just fill the existing ones then when cured put them back in.

That part is rather simple except when using windshield eurathane adhesive which cures to a very dense and durable slightly flexible level that is quite fine for mounts. It takes a few layers of the material to ensure it fully cures.

This is a way for those that do not mind a bit more DIY type project and a way to save alot of the cost compared to the manf units and have better end results

Rick

superbill

raamaudio..iam unclear on how you fill the motormounts? aren't they solid.

or are they hollow? or are they like exhaust hangers that have slotted gaps to fill ?

aarontrini85

same here how bout a pic or something???


i cant find any thing on alldatapro.com about it so let me know what you can find

Schuller

Here is some more info.

The solution is to reduce the flex in the rubberband-like motor mounts and suspension bushings. This page deals only with the motor mounts.
Mike at RRE told sent me a tube of Windo Weld. This is a cheap way to convert the flimsy stock mounts (referred to as roll stops in the manual) into solid ones. This cuts wheel hop and protects the mounts from premature wear, and more importantly the transmission. The stock mounts have huge gaps which allow the center of the mount to move up and down excessively. The Windo Weld is a soft, rubbery polyurethene that closely matches the consistency of the rubber part of the mount, and is a perfect way to fill those gaps.

Do this in thin layers! I scrapped the first attempt because I filled the mount all at once. It would have taken too long to cure - the outside looks dry, but the inside remains uncured for quite some time. Thin layers of less than 1/4" thick should cure in about 3 hours each. A heat gun speeds up the curing process, but too much heat will cause a volcanic bubbling effect, ruining the job. Do one mount at a time - you can remove either the front or rear mount without supporting the engine, but I recommend not removing both.

These instructions are for a 1995-1999 FWD Eclipse or Talon. For other vehicles, consult your service manual for proper removal of front and rear roll stops or mounts.


Removing the front mount (easy 5-minute job):
1. Jack up the front (only the front) of the car from the sides.
2. Loosen (but don't remove) the bolt going through the center of the motor mount
3. Evenly loosen and remove the 2 bolts holding the front motor mount to the center member.
4. At this point, the mount should not be supporting any weight - you may want to check if there is a gap between the mount and the centermember with a piece of paper. If not, you may need another jack to push the engine up slightly before removing the bolt through the center but this was not necessary with my car.
5. Remove the bolt going through the center of the mount, and you're done.
6. To reinstall, reverse the process: Put the bolt through the mount, evenly bolt the mount to the centermember, and properly torque everything according to the service manual.

jlaznlover

to get to the rear mount, does it require dropping the subframe? the front is obiviously easier to get out than the rear.

raamaudio

Great Post!

A couple of recommendations.

1) use your oven instead of a heat gun, I set mine on 225 degrees, it worked just fine. I did not time it because was involved in several projects at the same time, just came in and checked in when I was free for a couple of minutes here and there.

2) Doing both at once does involve a bit more effort to get them back in but saves a great deal of time. Installing the front one first would be easiest because you can get to it. I would imagine you would then have the same amount of effort involved installing the rear one as if you did it seperately anyway;)

3)To remove the rear one may take a bit of effort, more than the front most certainly. I have not done a rear one on a tC, very similar layout to the Matrix, Celica, Corola, etc, except the S pipe but that is located where I do not believe it will be an issue. You will need a couple of long extensions for your socket set to reach the center bolt through the wheel well(remove the spash shield in the way, work from the drivers side) The rest unbolt from the bottom, should be 4 studs that on the mount that go through the crossmember and unbolt from below.

4)There may be a guide posted somewhere here if one has been done on a clutch/flywheel swap, I would search and see what you can find.

I used this product, bought it at a local glass shop for $10.50

DOW
Betaseal U-418 HV
Quick Cure
Primerless to Auto Glass
Urethane Adhesive
10.5oz

It fits a regular caulking gun and should be enough to do two cars or darn close to it.

Just doing the front alone has helped alot, doing both will be better of course.

Rick

aarontrini85

awsome rick now i just have to hit up a auto glass shop today before they close

or does pepboys or autozone carry this sort of crap???

raamaudio

Never seen it anywhere except a glass shop, only used one brand, good luck!
Rick

aarontrini85

thanks now its time to google some glass repair shops

Schuller

I just got some Window Weld and will be doing the mount soon. A few questions. How much did you cut out? Would it still be effective without cutting any out?

raamaudio

It will probably not make much difference in reality. I did it just because I like to go a step beyond what most will do

As long as you fill everything, including the little holes, it will be far stiffer than stock, most importantly it will reduce the amount the engine can sway back and forth from the torgue, more energy will be transferred to the wheels that way

Rick

aarontrini85

still cant find this so i started my fiberglass box but im going to hit up jcwhitney later this weekend i know they have to have it hell they have every thing lol

raamaudio

Any autoglass repair shop has to have a brand that will work, it is the only way they can replace windsheilds in most modern cars, if not all of them

Rick

Schuller

I got it off ebay 12.00 delivered w/2-3 day delivery. I got the 3m Window Weld in clear. Clear is cheaper than the black.

Schuller

Thank you for your help. Can you comment some more on the effects it has on vibrations to the cabin?