238whp with the TRD S/C and Stock Boost? *DYNO Inside!*
06-29-2006, 06:57 PM
#81
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Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
In the over all scheme of thing 20 hp is not alot. When you figure that you will need all the same part they had to make it. The boost cooler itself did not create 20hp. The combination of the header, exhaust, e-manage, and the boost cooler working in conjunction with one another created a total of 46hp. If you put the boost cooler on a straight stock set up with no engine management or that the reflash will more that likely produce less of a gain.
I think Josh is my better half. He says what I want to in a much nicer way. lol
06-29-2006, 07:22 PM
#82
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Originally Posted by Jake_tC
Exactly. The tuning tweak and what not is what made the power. You put a boost cooler on there by itself and you're not seeing much improvement. Changing the tuning is what helped.
Duh!! You need a tune to run safely...
06-29-2006, 07:29 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by Jake_tC
Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
In the over all scheme of thing 20 hp is not alot. When you figure that you will need all the same part they had to make it. The boost cooler itself did not create 20hp. The combination of the header, exhaust, e-manage, and the boost cooler working in conjunction with one another created a total of 46hp. If you put the boost cooler on a straight stock set up with no engine management or that the reflash will more that likely produce less of a gain.
I think Josh is my better half. He says what I want to in a much nicer way. lol
We tweaked the tune THEN added the boost cooler.
After the tune was tweaked, the car picked up about 5-7 whp in 3 consecutive (back to back, no cool down) dyno pulls... it wasnt until we added the boost cooler after the fact in which it picked up another 20 whp... so where are you seeing that extra tuning made the difference? The car already had the Audi BOV, headers, and TRD exhaust when it came in and made 210... so with respect to your assertion that we didnt make all the power in the difference of what the car made between the time it came in and the time it left is completely untrue... in fact, i never said that we made ALL the power with the boost cooler, i said it was a boost cooler and a tune that made an addition 30whp over the stock TRD stuff WITH the modifications it already had.
The TRD tune is retarded rich in the first place, as you can see by the sub 10 afr's during the stock pass before any modifications were made to electronics... But cleaning the afr's up only did so much for the tune... the reason the boost cooler made a larger difference was because those engines heat soak, it was crazy hot under that hood, so cooling the intake charge made a tremendous difference in the overall temps both under the hood, and also in the temp/density of the intake stream, which in turn made over twice the power that just leaning out the tune a little bit did...
Any real tuner knows that sub 10's is way to rich for power OR safety... you're almost looking to wash out your rings over time with those numbers...
Thing of it is,
I'm told the tC has forged internals... that being the case i cannot understand why TRD would not have expanded on the power further, if they are really forged and properly balanced you should be able to make 20 or 25 pounds of boost on them with the right tuning no problem...
Sooo why dont you tell me again how us adding the boost cooler didnt add the power?
06-29-2006, 07:46 PM
#87
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Originally Posted by IchijinMikomi
Originally Posted by Jake_tC
Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
In the over all scheme of thing 20 hp is not alot. When you figure that you will need all the same part they had to make it. The boost cooler itself did not create 20hp. The combination of the header, exhaust, e-manage, and the boost cooler working in conjunction with one another created a total of 46hp. If you put the boost cooler on a straight stock set up with no engine management or that the reflash will more that likely produce less of a gain.
I think Josh is my better half. He says what I want to in a much nicer way. lol
We tweaked the tune THEN added the boost cooler.
After the tune was tweaked, the car picked up about 5-7 whp in 3 consecutive (back to back, no cool down) dyno pulls... it wasnt until we added the boost cooler after the fact in which it picked up another 20 whp... so where are you seeing that extra tuning made the difference? The car already had the Audi BOV, headers, and TRD exhaust when it came in and made 210... so with respect to your assertion that we didnt make all the power in the difference of what the car made between the time it came in and the time it left is completely untrue... in fact, i never said that we made ALL the power with the boost cooler, i said it was a boost cooler and a tune that made an addition 30whp over the stock TRD stuff WITH the modifications it already had.
The TRD tune is retarded rich in the first place, as you can see by the sub 10 afr's during the stock pass before any modifications were made to electronics... But cleaning the afr's up only did so much for the tune... the reason the boost cooler made a larger difference was because those engines heat soak, it was crazy hot under that hood, so cooling the intake charge made a tremendous difference in the overall temps both under the hood, and also in the temp/density of the intake stream, which in turn made over twice the power that just leaning out the tune a little bit did...
Any real tuner knows that sub 10's is way to rich for power OR safety... you're almost looking to wash out your rings over time with those numbers...
Thing of it is,
I'm told the tC has forged internals... that being the case i cannot understand why TRD would not have expanded on the power further, if they are really forged and properly balanced you should be able to make 20 or 25 pounds of boost on them with the right tuning no problem...
Sooo why dont you tell me again how us adding the boost cooler didnt add the power?
Please keep in mind that the tC was not designed for boost. The S/C was more like an after thought. If it were designed to be a boosted car in the first place you would be able to finance it with the S/C. Anyway. There are more things involved that just the engine you also have to look at the tranny as well. Personally I think the 300hp mark on the stock internals is the end of the line and I don't mean reliably either. Even on a turbo set up 14lbs is almost too much for the car. Another thing is the drive axles. They aren't the strongest things on the planet. Just ask ZPI and Dezod.
The TRD reflash is on the rich side of the scale yes but fuel is a cooler. So it balances out in the long run. Again they designed the S/C and the reflash to work in conjunction with the warranty. They wanted the car to have more performance but not at the cost of relabilty. Yes most of the products that are out when used properly are safe to a point. But how many people out there really understand what they are buying? 10%? Maybe? I guessing high. Now if you take someone who really know what these products can do and know how to use them properly you'll be fine. Our problem is no one like to admit they just don't know what they are doing.
06-29-2006, 08:08 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
Please keep in mind that the tC was not designed for boost. The S/C was more like an after thought. If it were designed to be a boosted car in the first place you would be able to finance it with the S/C. Anyway. There are more things involved that just the engine you also have to look at the tranny as well. Personally I think the 300hp mark on the stock internals is the end of the line and I don't mean reliably either. Even on a turbo set up 14lbs is almost too much for the car. Another thing is the drive axles. They aren't the strongest things on the planet. Just ask ZPI and Dezod.
The TRD reflash is on the rich side of the scale yes but fuel is a cooler. So it balances out in the long run. Again they designed the S/C and the reflash to work in conjunction with the warranty. They wanted the car to have more performance but not at the cost of relabilty. Yes most of the products that are out when used properly are safe to a point. But how many people out there really understand what they are buying? 10%? Maybe? I guessing high. Now if you take someone who really know what these products can do and know how to use them properly you'll be fine. Our problem is no one like to admit they just don't know what they are doing.
Thing of it is, Josh, and i think you will tend to agree with this statement since you nowhave a little evidence in your research to suggest alcohol injection might actually be a good safe way to add power AND increase safety and longevity of the engine by keeping temps down and adding octane which increases power AND reduces the potential for pre-detonation, that the addition of this cooler potentially jeopardizing the warranty on this setup is nothing more than an unfortunate conflict in a policy rather than an actual reason for dismissal of the warranty entirely... meaning in short that if they had thought of it before and realized the potential they might have written it in as an acceptable add-on, or something to that degree...
Anyways.
I think what it all comes down to is this:
You are going to have some guys that stand with their warranty, and that's fine, we understand that, and have no issue for it...We rather wish that guys in this situation could make more use of added parts that help the overall situation, but accept the fact that there are just some guys who dont fall into this catergory.
And then, you will have some guys who will recognize the advantages of a system such as this one, simple, pretty cost effective, and adds to safety, and they will think to themselves, that "Hey, if my engine runs cooler and has less of a chance to detonate there's less chance i'll have to exercise my warranty to begin with!" and maybe they will want this...
Then there's just the guys who want brutal power and say F the warranty... lol. Lump me in with that catergory on a personal level,
but then again, i also know what i am doing and made sure i knew what i was getting into beforehand, which as you said, not everyone does.So the number 1 rule of all is, BE PREPARED for what happens as much as possible.
Hopefully you guys can benefit from all of this discussion! In the meantime... we're getting away from the fact that a little beast got turned out of our shop, and we are pretty damn proud of that accomplishment!
06-29-2006, 08:10 PM
#90
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Originally Posted by PghtC
the internals may be forged, but the ring lands are way too shallow, and will fail if you run much more than 10psi.
06-29-2006, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by IchijinMikomi
I agree... most people want to believe after they read a few things on a forum they know what's up. I also agree that safety is important above all else, but i think in addition to that some of these guys should be recognizing the fact that if they want a car so much faster with a warranty they should have bought something with a v8 in it, like a vette... ;-).
Thing of it is, Josh, and i think you will tend to agree with this statement since you nowhave a little evidence in your research to suggest alcohol injection might actually be a good safe way to add power AND increase safety and longevity of the engine by keeping temps down and adding octane which increases power AND reduces the potential for pre-detonation, that the addition of this cooler potentially jeopardizing the warranty on this setup is nothing more than an unfortunate conflict in a policy rather than an actual reason for dismissal of the warranty entirely... meaning in short that if they had thought of it before and realized the potential they might have written it in as an acceptable add-on, or something to that degree...
Anyways.
I think what it all comes down to is this:
You are going to have some guys that stand with their warranty, and that's fine, we understand that, and have no issue for it...We rather wish that guys in this situation could make more use of added parts that help the overall situation, but accept the fact that there are just some guys who dont fall into this catergory.
And then, you will have some guys who will recognize the advantages of a system such as this one, simple, pretty cost effective, and adds to safety, and they will think to themselves, that "Hey, if my engine runs cooler and has less of a chance to detonate there's less chance i'll have to exercise my warranty to begin with!" and maybe they will want this...
Then there's just the guys who want brutal power and say F the warranty... lol. Lump me in with that catergory on a personal level,
but then again, i also know what i am doing and made sure i knew what i was getting into beforehand, which as you said, not everyone does.So the number 1 rule of all is, BE PREPARED for what happens as much as possible.
Hopefully you guys can benefit from all of this discussion! In the meantime... we're getting away from the fact that a little beast got turned out of our shop, and we are pretty damn proud of that accomplishment!
Yes it is pretty impressive.
06-29-2006, 08:41 PM
#93
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Originally Posted by mattvs
cannot understand why TRD would not have expanded on the power further
CARB
Besides, most states are not held back by the CARB standards (although some of them are conforming) like California is...you would think if TRD wanted this kit to sell they would have released a more powerful still warrantiable kit for the guys that dont have to deal with those tough restrictions...
06-29-2006, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by IchijinMikomi
CARB does not stand for Cant Add Real ***** [to the car]... If you can make power safely with the right air fuels there is no reason this car couldn't make more power and still meet CARB standards.
Besides, most states are not held back by the CARB standards (although some of them are conforming) like California is...you would think if TRD wanted this kit to sell they would have released a more powerful still warrantiable kit for the guys that dont have to deal with those tough restrictions...
Actually they can't. I don't think you really understand how bad CARB is to be honest. The only part that TRD has released that wouldn't pass CARB is the TRD intake. I don't understand how they got the car to pass with the S/C and can't do it with the intake but that's another story all together. The S/C kit in it's current state is at it's limits with CARB. Tweak anything and it isn't going to pass. Trust and believe when I tell you TRD know what this thing is capable of doing.
06-30-2006, 05:51 AM
#96
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Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
Originally Posted by IchijinMikomi
CARB does not stand for Cant Add Real ***** [to the car]... If you can make power safely with the right air fuels there is no reason this car couldn't make more power and still meet CARB standards.
Besides, most states are not held back by the CARB standards (although some of them are conforming) like California is...you would think if TRD wanted this kit to sell they would have released a more powerful still warrantiable kit for the guys that dont have to deal with those tough restrictions...
Actually they can't. I don't think you really understand how bad CARB is to be honest. The only part that TRD has released that wouldn't pass CARB is the TRD intake. I don't understand how they got the car to pass with the S/C and can't do it with the intake but that's another story all together. The S/C kit in it's current state is at it's limits with CARB. Tweak anything and it isn't going to pass. Trust and believe when I tell you TRD know what this thing is capable of doing.
06-30-2006, 05:55 AM
#97
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Originally Posted by PghtC
one must be careful however...just like Nitrous, you dont just bolt this on and start spraying like crazy.
It can damage the engine if not used properly.
maybe the next FATF movie will be all about getting meth in their car instead of NAWS.
It can damage the engine if not used properly.
maybe the next FATF movie will be all about getting meth in their car instead of NAWS.
06-30-2006, 11:34 AM
#98
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PghtC wrote:
one must be careful however...just like Nitrous, you dont just bolt this on and start spraying like crazy.
It can damage the engine if not used properly.
maybe the next FATF movie will be all about getting meth in their car instead of NAWS.
one must be careful however...just like Nitrous, you dont just bolt this on and start spraying like crazy.
It can damage the engine if not used properly.
maybe the next FATF movie will be all about getting meth in their car instead of NAWS.
Scene from FATF 4: The rapper/actor looks under the hood and says "He's got enough meth in there to blow himself up".
06-30-2006, 03:17 PM
#99
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Originally Posted by mattvs
cannot understand why TRD would not have expanded on the power further
CARB
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=108776
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