rhythmnsmoke

Not to harp or anything....but the ONLY engine builder on these forums is PTuning. Nie have I seen ONE built motor that had Dezods hands on it. Dezod is no more of an engine building source than TurboToyotas is.

rhythmnsmoke

Damn, didn't see your post before I made my comment.....lol. But we are DEFINITELY on the same page.

When will people learn to stop taking what Vendors say at "Face Value" and start looking at the underlining facts and doing research. If they actually paid attention to what IS instead of what SHOULD BE, this community would be a better place.

rhythmnsmoke

ERL is an engine builder for the 2az no doubt about that, and probably have built a number of them. However, just some pointers I wanted to throw in. PTuning, from my understanding, disassembles/assembles and builds their motors in house. The machining of the block/head is probably the only thing that gets done else where. Secondly, they have serviced more than Scions bro, so don't down play the "one car and a couple of engines builds" thing. That's just ONE make they do work on, they have been in business for some time. Have you actually seen pics of their Facilities....Good GOD!

BlackKnight

I think Ptuning's machine shop is in the same building or next door to them aren't they?

rhythmnsmoke

MrC can provide the definite answer to that. But I would not be surprised if it was, they have everything else don't they...lol.

CarbonXe

iTrader: (1)

That's what I was getting at. Just look at the Time Attack lineup next season. There's going to be at least 4 people running with the PTuning motor, 0 with Dezod, 0 with TT, and 1 with World Racing (assuming Rado is still running a 2AZ).

rhythmnsmoke

^^To add to that, seriously....What's the point in sending your motor to a Middle man to turn around and send it to someone else to build and then send back to you? If ERL is actually doing the motor build, then you sending it to ERL themselves seems like a more common sense approach. Do you "really" need a representative in your place...lol.

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

I think todd as an ERL representative is more on a person that promotes ERL but not solely just to be a middle man but at the same time arranges a motor build with ERL especially those for those who dont have an idea on what kind of build to do.. service through him is an option but may not be the fastest way to do the build especially for those not local to him..

rhythmnsmoke

No offense Ace....but still don't see any point to that. Knowing what you want your motor to do is not rocket science. Like if I called ERL and told them I want my tC to make 400whp reliably as a daily driver, I'm sure ERL can provide you with a build spec sheet that would meet your minimum requirements. Again, it just does not seem practical to send your motor to a middle man when the build could provide you the means for customer service and the build itself.

crush02342002

iTrader: (2)

i think todd said it in another thread (correct me if im wrong) but ERL doesn't deal with the common customer they prefer to deal with shops. Does it make sense to do it that way, not really but its what ERL does. so if you want an ERL built engine you have to go through a shop that reps them. I think ERL prolly doesn't want to deal with all the questions, plan changes, guiding customers, or taking the risk of a customer pulling out in mid build. I can only speculate on this though.

rhythmnsmoke

Middle men don't alleviate questions, plan changes, guiding customers or taking the risk of a customer pulling out in mid build.

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

lol maybe you've just been on the advanced side of the hobby or havent met a complete noob in a while. To me a complete noob calling ERL directly will be overwhelmed with the technical terms they will encounter, asked what kind of setup he is putting on and the only answer is a turbo kit and i want it reliable 400hp to me is insufficient info for a build.. A middle man that is focused specifically to a setup will help get specifics better.

With the kind of business Todd is in, offering ERL service on his website is also a way of promoting ERL, same way many performance products are distributed by different vendors when you can order it directly from manufacturer.. again that option for someone not local is not so practical, no point like you mentioned.

rhythmnsmoke

Either that or I just assume that people who are in the stage of having their motor built......are past the noob stage.

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

yeah motor build and noobness shouldnt be together, there's always gonna be especially if they got money to spend

MrC_Ptuning

Normally we don't like to jump into a thread related to another vendor but since we're being ask to clarify information pertaining to our company or our products, we felt obligated to make a post.

There are a lot of great engine machining centers out there, the company you choose to provide you with the type of service you demand is up to you, we're not here to discredit any person or company--they each have there own specialty.

Just so everyone knows, our company Ptuning has been in the aftermarket import performance industry since 1999, around the time the whole import scene took off. Import performance was nothing new to my partner and I, before '99 the only import cars we or anyone modifed were VW Rabbits, Scirocco's, Bug, and Porsche. So getting into the import performance business was a perfect opportunity to turn our hobby into a business, especially since everyone was driving japanese imports. Many of you were still in grade school when we first started our business. But this is not about how long we've been in business, but more about what we've seen and experience in that period of time.

In the late nineties to early 2000s, there were a lot of small, but innovative companies in the import performance aftermarket industry, these were not big companies in it just to make a easy buck, but instead enthusiasts like you and I who were passionate about cars and performance. Over the years, with the influx of cheap import knock-offs, we've seen many of our business associates and vendors close shop since they can't compete in terms of pricing. With the way the industry is heading towards, there will not be any new and innovative companies left to R&D and build parts that performance and not parts that are just cheap and looks pretty. Soon all you will be able to buy is a knock off of a knock off with no real R&D behind it, just another cheap part with a pretty packaging.

The point i'm try to get across here is that to do things right it takes time and money (aka R&D) to design, test and produce a quality product--not necessary the perfect product, but product with a lot of thinking behind it. The bottom line is that many of the products that are on the market theses days are not necessarily the best product but more of the product that going to give the seller the highest profit margin. It's easier and cheaper to reverse engineers someone else's hard work, mass produce it and slap your name on it without every having to prototype or test the product. A good example is the exhaust system, i can't remember the last time I saw a new exhaust system on the market with a dyno graph. And half of the exhaust system on the market are made overseas by the same company marketed under various name with subtle changes to make it look different. So when one of those brands don't fit a particular car, they other brands don't fit either.

When you buy a Scion, the engine, tranny, body, and everything else that goes into the final product is design and engineer mostly by Scion/Toyota, but not all, and only a few of those components are actually manufacturered in a Toyota factory. The majority of the individual parts are out-source to hundreds if not thousands of smaller contract manufacturing companies that specialized in producing a specific component. But none the less it is a Scion/Toyota. Their engineers spend countless hours researching, designing and testing the product and making sure all the specs and quality control were followed so that the final production car comes together per spec.

Now on to us. We don't claim to manufacturer, produce or machine everything in-house--no one company has that capability. What we have done is take on the challenge of designing, prototyping, fabricating, and testing most of the performance parts we build specifically for the Scion tC. When we first got our hands on a Scion tC, it was for a project show car we were building for the CAT (Central Altantic Toyota), the eastern arm of Toyota's distribution center. Our goal was to build a race-theme show car and nothing more, we had no intentions of every producing any products for this vehicle--although we fabricated a lot of parts for the car--since there wasn't a whole lot of performance products for the tC at the time. Everyone was more into the bling products as opposed to the performance products back then.

It was not until we were offer a deal to buy the "show" car back from Scion that we decided then and there we wanted to develop something for the Scion tC platform. After entering the car in our first Redline Time Attack event and winning, that's when we changed our mind and set out to develop our own line of performance products for the car.

As far our our competition engine is concerned. Have we raced with it? Yes. Have we made over 500whp on pump gas and WMI with it? Yes. Do we take full credit for spec'n and designing the Head Studs, Main Studs, Ductile Iron sleeves, SS Intake Valves, Inconel Exhaust valves. Bronze valve guides, etc. that's in our engine? Yes.

We have nothing to hide, our head studs and main studs were manufacturer to our spec by ARP, all of our valve train components that we will be including with our soon to be released cylinder head, was manufactured for us by Supertech. Some of the valve train components you see listed on the other vendor's website for the tC made by Supertech would not exists, had we not made the initial investment to have them manufacturer. All the cnc programming, digitizing of the factory block, engine mounting fixtures for the CNC machine, cylinder block honing torque plate are all own and paid for by us for machining the 2az-fe motor. Our machinist basically does the leg work of running his equipment, machining and checking the tolerances with the specs that we've provided. So no we don't own the engine machining center, but we've invested in all the tooling, programming and provided all the know how necessary for him to properly provide the service for our application. And yes, we do the finally assembly of the motor in-house. An in-house machining center and in-house engine dyno cell along with our existing chassis dyno cell and servicing facility would be ideal, but not cost effective at this time. That's our long term plan but not at the moment. But having full control over the design and specification for the products and services that we offer to our customers is what counts. We know everything that goes into that motor including all the clearances and specs.

As an underfunded, privateer, grassroots team with no financial sponsors, we take a lot of pride in what we've accomplished in the past season. We built, setup, and tuned our own race car in-house. Design all the custom components, built our own motor, wrecked and rebuit the car in 6 weeks and $12,000 later to win the final race and win the championship in the process--all self-funded. It may not mean a lot to a race team with a big pocket book that can be used to buy any part or any service, but it definitely means a lot to us.

So before anyone discounts our capabilities, I would like to see someone take their own stock tc, design, fabricate, and build everything they need to make it into a competitive track car in-house, from the cage, to the engine, to the turbo system, to the fueling, to the setup, to the tuning and everything in between and make it all work. It's easier said than done.

It's easy to pitch a sale, it's a lot harder to explain the technical aspects of what goes into a product or service and how and why it was done a certain way. I recommend that you, the consumer, ask the right questions and hopefully get the right answer from whomever you're buying your products or services from. You might be suprised to find out that you're only talking to a salesman and nothing more. Real knowledge comes from experience and trial and error and not from a sales pamphlet. No one has a monopoly on knowledge and a great product can always be improved upon. We're not here to say we're better than anyone else, since we're always learning new things ourselves, but we are here to support the community and stand behind the products that we sell and services that we offer.

Sorry for the long post. Most of you know I don't like to post stuff not worth reading. With that said, we will add more affordable engines components (pistons, rods, etc) and engine packages to our new www.ptuningscion.com site when it launches for those who don't necessarily need the best of the best.

MrC

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

^^ nice post but, whew that was long.. not much of a maraton reader :D

rhythmnsmoke

That's why I am getting my kicks from PTuning.

crush02342002

iTrader: (2)

great post mr.c....unlike ace i read all of it...lol

i like the honesty you bring.

TurboToyotas

Just to add....

Before the first of this month you had to go through a dealer (like myself) to get a motor built from ERL.

But that changed March, 1st. They now will deal with the public direct.

So anyone who is interested can deal with them directly....


Regardless any dealer like myself just arranged the the details of the build and shipping arrangements. The motor would never come to me or any dealer then be shipped to ERL. ERL sends the customer a container, the customer packs his motor up and it goes directly to ERL.

Again its all about options.....

their is more than one place to go.

Having more options is better for the community it keeps the competition high and it benefits everyone, as we are all striving to be better.

Regards-

Todd

crush02342002

iTrader: (2)

cool