2AZFE Crankwalk | I need some help!
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05-19-2008, 09:33 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by BroketC
Correct, if in fact they're a 1-piece design like you've pictured, if you were aware of the inner workings of the tC [which is obvious you may not] the 2AZFE has a 2-piece design... which is why 2 of the 4 pics I have are the good side where no damage was, and why the other side [which incredibly you failed to capture in your smartass quote] is in fact chewed up.
That picture is the good side, go back and read, thank you, come again!
That picture is the good side, go back and read, thank you, come again!
05-19-2008, 09:36 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by OC3RULZ
Originally Posted by BroketC
Correct, if in fact they're a 1-piece design like you've pictured, if you were aware of the inner workings of the tC [which is obvious you may not] the 2AZFE has a 2-piece design... which is why 2 of the 4 pics I have are the good side where no damage was, and why the other side [which incredibly you failed to capture in your smartass quote] is in fact chewed up.
That picture is the good side, go back and read, thank you, come again!
That picture is the good side, go back and read, thank you, come again!
Thank you, again!
05-19-2008, 09:49 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by BroketC
Your cute, but ignorant...
Make sure you read the thread CAREFULLY! 2 of those pics up there are of the good side where NO damage had been done by the crankwalk, the 2 pics below the good ones are of the side with CLEAR AS DAY damage to the wall and the end-cap.
Call BS if you want, but my effin motor is out of my car and I'm staring at the GD damage... so yeah... BS... pfft!
You have to pay to play.. and when you "having more posts then half the people in the thread" come back for a sympathy thread, it is a pretty worthless attempt for attention.
Calling OC3Rulz ignorant is like calling a fat person Paris Hilton. His knowledge far surpasses most of SL's members, and he's not usually as arrogant as SL members are when it comes to sharing. Instead of posting "Rice!" and "caring about e-popularity, he's doing the damn thing.
Now my guess.
You have an oil leak, or you didn't get the lower end replaced as you stated. I don't believe it's crank walk, but I'm not saying your engine is in running shape either. My good friend on his 05' RS1 had this happen 2x and did finally get a short block. Now runs 10psi and drives like he stole it.
If you crank walked you would need a new bottom end. not new bearings.
05-19-2008, 09:54 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by tCracer06
Wow i thought scion life people were actually nice but all you guys did was just bust him down and ridicule him. Real nice .. really nice.
Originally Posted by BroketC
Originally Posted by OC3RULZ
Originally Posted by BroketC
Correct, if in fact they're a 1-piece design like you've pictured, if you were aware of the inner workings of the tC [which is obvious you may not] the 2AZFE has a 2-piece design... which is why 2 of the 4 pics I have are the good side where no damage was, and why the other side [which incredibly you failed to capture in your smartass quote] is in fact chewed up.
That picture is the good side, go back and read, thank you, come again!
That picture is the good side, go back and read, thank you, come again!
Thank you, again!
05-19-2008, 10:08 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by ChicagosFinest
it was a joke.
Originally Posted by ChicagosFinest
Wipe the sand out and continue.
You have to pay to play.. and when you "having more posts then half the people in the thread" come back for a sympathy thread, it is a pretty worthless attempt for attention.
You have to pay to play.. and when you "having more posts then half the people in the thread" come back for a sympathy thread, it is a pretty worthless attempt for attention.
Originally Posted by ChicagosFinest
Calling OC3Rulz ignorant is like calling a fat person Paris Hilton. His knowledge far surpasses most of SL's members, and he's not usually as arrogant as SL members are when it comes to sharing. Instead of posting "Rice!" and "caring about e-popularity, he's doing the damn thing.
Originally Posted by ChicagosFinest
Now my guess.
You have an oil leak, or you didn't get the lower end replaced as you stated.
You have an oil leak, or you didn't get the lower end replaced as you stated.
Originally Posted by ChicagosFinest
I don't believe it's crank walk
Originally Posted by ChicagosFinest
If you crank walked you would need a new bottom end. not new bearings.
I'm here to simply share this process, and if what I'm aiming to have done is done, show that a 1-piece design would be much better for the already known weak bottom-end of the Scion tC.
05-19-2008, 10:17 PM
#29
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Re: 2AZFE Crankwalk | I need some help!
Originally Posted by BroketC
Alright, this is not the first time I've had issues with the tC motor, I've had my short block replaced because of a spun bearing, cylinder damage as well as other damges to the short block [highly documented already here on SL]. So now to the new issue I'm having... crankwalk!
As some of you may know, crankwalk is very common in some of the older DSM's, I however seem to be the unlucky dog to have had this happen to this motor. How you ask? I don't really know... maybe the 109,000+ miles?
This is the low down and dirty...
Initial issues I had was that I'd press the clutch in while in neutral at a stop, the car would cut out completely, or while downshifting, it would seize the motor up and would cut off even while in motion. I took the tC to Aamco here in SOMD, long story short, I was told it was crankwalk. I researched it, found it really odd that it happend in this motor, but after pulling the motor and tranny, ripping it apart, I've seen it first hand.
Above is my thrust bearing sitting at the bottom of my oil pan... wonderful, eh?
Here is [mind you it's not actually installed, just sitting there to demonstrate] the good side of the block where the block was not ate by the crank...
Now here is how the ate-up side of the block looks, and below that is the explination of the actual issue.
Here is what the issues are...
Here is what I need to locate or have engineered to remedy this issue with minimal costs... I would need to find a 1-piece upper thrust bearing to replace the current 2-piece design that Toyota engineered... Very poor design IMO!
**Not the actual part, just example**
So I've been in contact with numerous folks trying to see if anyone has any leads or connections, perhaps this has been addressed in built motors, etc?
Let me hear some feedback! Thank you!
First off, the 2AZ-FE does not have a crankwalk issue like the 7-bolt 4g63 eclipse turbo motor. The 7-bolt 4g6e motor had a crankwalk issue because the factory had a big batch of crank that had the thrust face on the crank machined beyond the blue printed spec. This meant that some, but not all 7-bolt 4g6e motor had the extremely large thrust bearing clearance that allow the crank to move back and forth (crank walk). When your crank is allow to move that much, everything that works off of it will either break or not line up (ie. crank angle sensor, etc). And throwing in a 2600-2900# pressure plate will make the problem worse.
There is nothing wrong with the way toyota engineered the two-piece thrust bearing as a separate piece from the center main bearings. The thrust bearing clearance is so tight that there's no way the thrust washer could have fallen out like what you had experience with your motor. There's is only a few possible scenario as to why one of your thrust bearing fell out causing your crank to walk:
1) The thrust bearing was put in backward, that is the slotted/oiling side was facing the main caps instead of the crank. Since the thrust bearing is taper at the end on the sloted side, this could cause it rotate if for some reason your thrust clearing was really loose. Also having the slotted side agains the main caps instead of the crankshaft thrust bearing face would have prevented the oil from lubricating the contact surface between the thrust bearing and crank. This is probably unlikely, unless who ever assembled your motor last, made a huge mistake.
2) There are 5 mains caps, the two outer main caps are 21mm thick. The center main caps which holds down the two thrust bearing halves is 23mm thick. The extra 2mm is designed to secure the thrust bearing on either side of the center main bearing from rotating. If for some reason, someone swapped the center 23mm main caps with one of the narrower 21mm main caps, this would allow the thrust bearings to rotate freely and fall right out. Again, this would also be a engine assembly error.
I can try to speculate some more, But i believe the 2nd item is probably the reason why your thrust washer is sitting at the bottom of your oil pan and not on the center main cap housing. There's a reason why engines have marking on some of the components, because these components are designed to work only when installed properly.
One of the most overlooked aspect of engine assembly is checking the bearing clearances. Just because your used crank looks new and you buy a new set of bearings, does not negate the necessity to check, double check, and triple check all your bearing clearances.
Again, this is the first i've heard of crankwalk on a 2az-fe, unless of course you got a factory crank that had too much material removed from the cranks' thrust surface. But then again, that would have been caught by whom ever assembled the motor.
Also I don't believe any bearing manufacture will make a main bearing with the integrated thrust bearing for the 2az-fe motor, unless toyota really screwed up on their designed. Most of the toyota engines including the 2JZGTE (Supra turbo) uses a separate thurst bearing not integrated into the main bearing. I hope this helps you track down exactly what might have happened.
MrC
05-19-2008, 10:20 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by ChicagosFinest
I just don't like cocky know it alls who can't take a joke. In this case he's beyond determined to be wright that he even skips over OC3RULZ suggestion as to what the solution for his problem could be as he's looking for BEARINGS. He's reading what he wants to read, and will have to be right continuing further.
I haven't skipped "suggestions" at all, perhaps your forgetting that this is my engine, I've been working this issue for quite some time with some folks that probably have just as much, if not more, experience and knowledge as some of the folks on here. His solution is if my thrust bearing face was in GOOD condition, it is NOT in good enough condition to do the OEM reccomended fix, I've went that route, ordered the parts, checked to see how it would sit and stopped because it WILL NOT work that route... That reason is why I am here today, I'm looking to change out the 2-piece upper thrust bearing design with a properly spec'd 1-piece bearing design that will eliminate the need for a new block because the damage was not so far along that it would require a new block.
Plain and simple, OEM design is a 2-piece design, I'm looking to do something that I believe hasn't been done or if it has, searching for the persons who have! Period!
Again, let's keep this thread civil, I'm not here to bust ***** nor do I want to have mine busted because of my friggin post count on the friggin site...
I know how this site works, I was once a moderator of the Mid-Atlantic and I'm fully aware of the peoples ego's and quick to jump down someone's throat, attitudes...
Clean slate, if someone is not understanding what I've posted, let me know... I'll try and clear this up...
In the meantime, I'm going to get some more pics up so we have more to see...
05-19-2008, 10:23 PM
#32
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Re: 2AZFE Crankwalk | I need some help!
Originally Posted by Ptuningcom
I'm assuming you're the gentleman that left me a message abou the crankwalk issue. Sorry I could not call you back sooner. But since you went ahead and posted your crankwalk issue, i'll try to answer your questions here.
05-19-2008, 10:24 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by 05wrx
with a name like yours.. you are basically asking for it.
the pity train left the station an hour before you registered. sorry. better luck next time.
the pity train left the station an hour before you registered. sorry. better luck next time.
No one is asking for pity son...
05-19-2008, 10:34 PM
#35
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Re: 2AZFE Crankwalk | I need some help!
Originally Posted by Ptuningcom
First off, the 2AZ-FE does not have a crankwalk issue like the 7-bolt 4g63 eclipse turbo motor. The 7-bolt 4g6e motor had a crankwalk issue because the factory had a big batch of crank that had the thrust face on the crank machined beyond the blue printed spec. This meant that some, but not all 7-bolt 4g6e motor had the extremely large thrust bearing clearance that allow the crank to move back and forth (crank walk). When your crank is allow to move that much, everything that works off of it will either break or not line up (ie. crank angle sensor, etc). And throwing in a 2600-2900# pressure plate will make the problem worse.
So I openly admit I was continuing the use of inproper verbiage...
Originally Posted by Ptuningcom
1) The thrust bearing was put in backward, that is the slotted/oiling side was facing the main caps instead of the crank. Since the thrust bearing is taper at the end on the sloted side, this could cause it rotate if for some reason your thrust clearing was really loose. Also having the slotted side agains the main caps instead of the crankshaft thrust bearing face would have prevented the oil from lubricating the contact surface between the thrust bearing and crank. This is probably unlikely, unless who ever assembled your motor last, made a huge mistake.
2) There are 5 mains caps, the two outer main caps are 21mm thick. The center main caps which holds down the two thrust bearing halves is 23mm thick. The extra 2mm is designed to secure the thrust bearing on either side of the center main bearing from rotating. If for some reason, someone swapped the center 23mm main caps with one of the narrower 21mm main caps, this would allow the thrust bearings to rotate freely and fall right out. Again, this would also be a engine assembly error.
I can try to speculate some more, But i believe the 2nd item is probably the reason why your thrust washer is sitting at the bottom of your oil pan and not on the center main cap housing. There's a reason why engines have marking on some of the components, because these components are designed to work only when installed properly.
One of the most overlooked aspect of engine assembly is checking the bearing clearances. Just because your used crank looks new and you buy a new set of bearings, does not negate the necessity to check, double check, and triple check all your bearing clearances.
Again, this is the first i've heard of crankwalk on a 2az-fe, unless of course you got a factory crank that had too much material removed from the cranks' thrust surface. But then again, that would have been caught by whom ever assembled the motor.
Also I don't believe any bearing manufacture will make a main bearing with the integrated thrust bearing for the 2az-fe motor, unless toyota really screwed up on their designed. Most of the toyota engines including the 2JZGTE (Supra turbo) uses a separate thurst bearing not integrated into the main bearing. I hope this helps you track down exactly what might have happened.
MrC
2) There are 5 mains caps, the two outer main caps are 21mm thick. The center main caps which holds down the two thrust bearing halves is 23mm thick. The extra 2mm is designed to secure the thrust bearing on either side of the center main bearing from rotating. If for some reason, someone swapped the center 23mm main caps with one of the narrower 21mm main caps, this would allow the thrust bearings to rotate freely and fall right out. Again, this would also be a engine assembly error.
I can try to speculate some more, But i believe the 2nd item is probably the reason why your thrust washer is sitting at the bottom of your oil pan and not on the center main cap housing. There's a reason why engines have marking on some of the components, because these components are designed to work only when installed properly.
One of the most overlooked aspect of engine assembly is checking the bearing clearances. Just because your used crank looks new and you buy a new set of bearings, does not negate the necessity to check, double check, and triple check all your bearing clearances.
Again, this is the first i've heard of crankwalk on a 2az-fe, unless of course you got a factory crank that had too much material removed from the cranks' thrust surface. But then again, that would have been caught by whom ever assembled the motor.
Also I don't believe any bearing manufacture will make a main bearing with the integrated thrust bearing for the 2az-fe motor, unless toyota really screwed up on their designed. Most of the toyota engines including the 2JZGTE (Supra turbo) uses a separate thurst bearing not integrated into the main bearing. I hope this helps you track down exactly what might have happened.
MrC
I'll make sure I address this posting with some folks, could be a start point. As I previously stated, the short block that is in my tC now is the one I had installed after my 1st motor issue [Gotti's Saga Thread]... so it's possible then when the dealership installed my new short block, over the course of the other 80K+ miles, they could have assembled it wrong... which makes great sense.
05-19-2008, 10:41 PM
#37
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So the fun part then, how would I go about trying to determine if the thrust washer was installed incorrectly? If the bottom end hasn't been messed with since the new shorty was dropped in, I suppose Toyota would want some pretty concrete stuff...
I suppose the tech's at Aamco who pulled the tranny and saw the crank moving would be one good start, pictures and simple understanding...
I'm going to check again the bearings on the crank to make sure the right one was in fact used...
This now seems like it could have been a dealership issue...
I suppose the tech's at Aamco who pulled the tranny and saw the crank moving would be one good start, pictures and simple understanding...
I'm going to check again the bearings on the crank to make sure the right one was in fact used...
This now seems like it could have been a dealership issue...
05-19-2008, 10:43 PM
#38
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Re: 2AZFE Crankwalk | I need some help!
Originally Posted by BroketC
Originally Posted by Ptuningcom
First off, the 2AZ-FE does not have a crankwalk issue like the 7-bolt 4g63 eclipse turbo motor. The 7-bolt 4g6e motor had a crankwalk issue because the factory had a big batch of crank that had the thrust face on the crank machined beyond the blue printed spec. This meant that some, but not all 7-bolt 4g6e motor had the extremely large thrust bearing clearance that allow the crank to move back and forth (crank walk). When your crank is allow to move that much, everything that works off of it will either break or not line up (ie. crank angle sensor, etc). And throwing in a 2600-2900# pressure plate will make the problem worse.
So I openly admit I was continuing the use of inproper verbiage...
Originally Posted by Ptuningcom
1) The thrust bearing was put in backward, that is the slotted/oiling side was facing the main caps instead of the crank. Since the thrust bearing is taper at the end on the sloted side, this could cause it rotate if for some reason your thrust clearing was really loose. Also having the slotted side agains the main caps instead of the crankshaft thrust bearing face would have prevented the oil from lubricating the contact surface between the thrust bearing and crank. This is probably unlikely, unless who ever assembled your motor last, made a huge mistake.
2) There are 5 mains caps, the two outer main caps are 21mm thick. The center main caps which holds down the two thrust bearing halves is 23mm thick. The extra 2mm is designed to secure the thrust bearing on either side of the center main bearing from rotating. If for some reason, someone swapped the center 23mm main caps with one of the narrower 21mm main caps, this would allow the thrust bearings to rotate freely and fall right out. Again, this would also be a engine assembly error.
I can try to speculate some more, But i believe the 2nd item is probably the reason why your thrust washer is sitting at the bottom of your oil pan and not on the center main cap housing. There's a reason why engines have marking on some of the components, because these components are designed to work only when installed properly.
One of the most overlooked aspect of engine assembly is checking the bearing clearances. Just because your used crank looks new and you buy a new set of bearings, does not negate the necessity to check, double check, and triple check all your bearing clearances.
Again, this is the first i've heard of crankwalk on a 2az-fe, unless of course you got a factory crank that had too much material removed from the cranks' thrust surface. But then again, that would have been caught by whom ever assembled the motor.
Also I don't believe any bearing manufacture will make a main bearing with the integrated thrust bearing for the 2az-fe motor, unless toyota really screwed up on their designed. Most of the toyota engines including the 2JZGTE (Supra turbo) uses a separate thurst bearing not integrated into the main bearing. I hope this helps you track down exactly what might have happened.
MrC
2) There are 5 mains caps, the two outer main caps are 21mm thick. The center main caps which holds down the two thrust bearing halves is 23mm thick. The extra 2mm is designed to secure the thrust bearing on either side of the center main bearing from rotating. If for some reason, someone swapped the center 23mm main caps with one of the narrower 21mm main caps, this would allow the thrust bearings to rotate freely and fall right out. Again, this would also be a engine assembly error.
I can try to speculate some more, But i believe the 2nd item is probably the reason why your thrust washer is sitting at the bottom of your oil pan and not on the center main cap housing. There's a reason why engines have marking on some of the components, because these components are designed to work only when installed properly.
One of the most overlooked aspect of engine assembly is checking the bearing clearances. Just because your used crank looks new and you buy a new set of bearings, does not negate the necessity to check, double check, and triple check all your bearing clearances.
Again, this is the first i've heard of crankwalk on a 2az-fe, unless of course you got a factory crank that had too much material removed from the cranks' thrust surface. But then again, that would have been caught by whom ever assembled the motor.
Also I don't believe any bearing manufacture will make a main bearing with the integrated thrust bearing for the 2az-fe motor, unless toyota really screwed up on their designed. Most of the toyota engines including the 2JZGTE (Supra turbo) uses a separate thurst bearing not integrated into the main bearing. I hope this helps you track down exactly what might have happened.
MrC
I'll make sure I address this posting with some folks, could be a start point. As I previously stated, the short block that is in my tC now is the one I had installed after my 1st motor issue [Gotti's Saga Thread]... so it's possible then when the dealership installed my new short block, over the course of the other 80K+ miles, they could have assembled it wrong... which makes great sense.
MrC
05-19-2008, 10:58 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by BroketC
Originally Posted by 05wrx
boosting a high mileage motor thats known to have crank/bearing/etc issues.. is not a bright idea.
those should be your notes.
those should be your notes.