Article in Turbo Performance "TRD Supercharger vs T-net
03-02-2006, 05:30 PM
#1
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Article in Turbo Performance "TRD Supercharger vs T-net
Anyone catch the article in this months Turbo Performance mag?? They did a shootout with the TRD supercharger vs the Turbonetics kit. Turbonetics kit won hands down and the guys over at Turbo Performance completely dawged the supercharger 
They listed the pros and cons of each kit and listed some nice dyno graphs. The only thing is that they listed the tC as putting out 162 hp at the flywheel and 168 ft/lbs torque which we all know isn't true especially with the new industry standards of measureing hp at the fly.
Definitely a good article non the less so if you dont get a subsription to the mag go out and buy this months issue.
They listed the pros and cons of each kit and listed some nice dyno graphs. The only thing is that they listed the tC as putting out 162 hp at the flywheel and 168 ft/lbs torque which we all know isn't true especially with the new industry standards of measureing hp at the fly.
Definitely a good article non the less so if you dont get a subsription to the mag go out and buy this months issue.
03-02-2006, 06:46 PM
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I really can't understand why everyone keep comparing the S/C to Turbo kits. They are 2 totally different animals. If the S/C produced the same amount of boost as any one of the turbo kits it would be alot closer to the # the turbo kits put down. The S/C adds reliable HP under a warranty.
I'm not bashing turbo kits or anything so don't get me wrong. I'm all for turbo kits. Especially if you're the type of guy that would buy the S/C and change the pulley. I say don't wast the money and get a turbo kit. Your are going to accomplish the samething.
I'm not bashing turbo kits or anything so don't get me wrong. I'm all for turbo kits. Especially if you're the type of guy that would buy the S/C and change the pulley. I say don't wast the money and get a turbo kit. Your are going to accomplish the samething.
03-02-2006, 07:02 PM
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i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
03-02-2006, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
Like I said it's would be alot closer. I didn't say it would be exactly what a turbo would put down. If you put an inter cooler on the S/C it's going to bump up the HP just like it would with a turbo kit. Take the intercooler away and bring the boost down and you'll see that #'s get even closer.
When it comes to making power each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. My whole point is why are people comparing the 2. Yeah they both create boost but that pretty much all they have in common. You can't bash the S/C because it doesn't create the power the turbo does when it doesn't make the same amount of boost. The whole S/C kit was designed to work between 5-7lbs of boost. That's what it's tuned for and that's why it works well with the rest of the car.
03-02-2006, 07:18 PM
#6
Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
The charger only runs 7psi at redline, most users see 6.5 psi which could be a gauge variance. When crusing at say 60mph in 5th gear you only see about 1.5 psi of boost. It is very safe for the engine. Add the pulley and you go up to about 2.5-3 psi while cruising and at absolute redline you see 9.5psi. I like the way this is designed for it only is hard on the engine when you want it to be. Basically takes a n/a engine and makes it a monster n/a engine. With the supercharger the throttle responce especially in the higher rpm is wicked, would love to see a turbo car match the punch of the sc. I shocked the heck out of my buddies srt4 with a stage 3 on it, when we both flored it from 40mph I pulled an honest 1 1/2 lenghs on him, then he spooled and of course he blew by but he could not beleive how quick the tc was just mashing the gas. If it was a road course race or mountain race I think I could have whooped him Makes it very fun on the twisties
I cannot wait to see this article. I love it when companies like turbonetics throw tons and tons of cash to a magazine under the table to dog the competition. I have watched it happen first hand in the car audio world, made me kinda sick / laugh at the same time. Then everyone on the planet reads it and thinks it is gospel haha.
There is no doubt in my mind the turbonetics kit rips the sc a new one, but do not dog the sc just yet hehe. I cannot wait to lay down some dyno numbers on the way I am setting up my car.
03-02-2006, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
Like I said it's would be alot closer. I didn't say it would be exactly what a turbo would put down. If you put an inter cooler on the S/C it's going to bump up the HP just like it would with a turbo kit. Take the intercooler away and bring the boost down and you'll see that #'s get even closer.
When it comes to making power each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. My whole point is why are people comparing the 2. Yeah they both create boost but that pretty much all they have in common. You can't bash the S/C because it doesn't create the power the turbo does when it doesn't make the same amount of boost. The whole S/C kit was designed to work between 5-7lbs of boost. That's what it's tuned for and that's why it works well with the rest of the car.
03-02-2006, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by desertheat
Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
The charger only runs 7psi at redline, most users see 6.5 psi which could be a gauge variance. When crusing at say 60mph in 5th gear you only see about 1.5 psi of boost. It is very safe for the engine. Add the pulley and you go up to about 2.5-3 psi while cruising and at absolute redline you see 9.5psi. I like the way this is designed for it only is hard on the engine when you want it to be. Basically takes a n/a engine and makes it a monster n/a engine. With the supercharger the throttle responce especially in the higher rpm is wicked, would love to see a turbo car match the punch of the sc. I shocked the heck out of my buddies srt4 with a stage 3 on it, when we both flored it from 40mph I pulled an honest 1 1/2 lenghs on him, then he spooled and of course he blew by but he could not beleive how quick the tc was just mashing the gas. If it was a road course race or mountain race I think I could have whooped him Makes it very fun on the twisties
I cannot wait to see this article. I love it when companies like turbonetics throw tons and tons of cash to a magazine under the table to dog the competition. I have watched it happen first hand in the car audio world, made me kinda sick / laugh at the same time. Then everyone on the planet reads it and thinks it is gospel haha.
There is no doubt in my mind the turbonetics kit rips the sc a new one, but do not dog the sc just yet hehe. I cannot wait to lay down some dyno numbers on the way I am setting up my car.
03-02-2006, 07:26 PM
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Pro's of the Supercharger:
CARB Legal
Warrantied
Reliable
Won't explode your engine
Won't wear down the rest of your car
Made by Toyota
Quality is worth the extra thousand dollars.
If you do a pulley swap, you may as well have bought the Stage 0 ZPI kit, since you just lost warranty, full reliability, and assurance at non-blowing-up-ability. There isn't a single trained mechanic that won't recognize an aftermarket pulley. The moment he/she sees it is 10 seconds before your phone rings telling you you're screwed :p It completely defeats the entire purpose of the Supercharger.
CARB Legal
Warrantied
Reliable
Won't explode your engine
Won't wear down the rest of your car
Made by Toyota
Quality is worth the extra thousand dollars.
If you do a pulley swap, you may as well have bought the Stage 0 ZPI kit, since you just lost warranty, full reliability, and assurance at non-blowing-up-ability. There isn't a single trained mechanic that won't recognize an aftermarket pulley. The moment he/she sees it is 10 seconds before your phone rings telling you you're screwed :p It completely defeats the entire purpose of the Supercharger.
03-02-2006, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mattvs
Pro's of the Supercharger:
CARB Legal
Warrantied
Reliable
Won't explode your engine
Won't wear down the rest of your car
Made by Toyota
Quality is worth the extra thousand dollars.
If you do a pulley swap, you may as well have bought the Stage 0 ZPI kit, since you just lost warranty, full reliability, and assurance at non-blowing-up-ability. There isn't a single trained mechanic that won't recognize an aftermarket pulley. The moment he/she sees it is 10 seconds before your phone rings telling you you're screwed :p It completely defeats the entire purpose of the Supercharger.
CARB Legal
Warrantied
Reliable
Won't explode your engine
Won't wear down the rest of your car
Made by Toyota
Quality is worth the extra thousand dollars.
If you do a pulley swap, you may as well have bought the Stage 0 ZPI kit, since you just lost warranty, full reliability, and assurance at non-blowing-up-ability. There isn't a single trained mechanic that won't recognize an aftermarket pulley. The moment he/she sees it is 10 seconds before your phone rings telling you you're screwed :p It completely defeats the entire purpose of the Supercharger.
03-02-2006, 07:36 PM
#11
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
Like I said it's would be alot closer. I didn't say it would be exactly what a turbo would put down. If you put an inter cooler on the S/C it's going to bump up the HP just like it would with a turbo kit. Take the intercooler away and bring the boost down and you'll see that #'s get even closer.
When it comes to making power each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. My whole point is why are people comparing the 2. Yeah they both create boost but that pretty much all they have in common. You can't bash the S/C because it doesn't create the power the turbo does when it doesn't make the same amount of boost. The whole S/C kit was designed to work between 5-7lbs of boost. That's what it's tuned for and that's why it works well with the rest of the car.
Agreed to a point. I have yet to see or feel a turbosetup that can match the instant massive throttle responce that a well tuned sc car can produce, on the track this is a monsterous advantage. All it comes down to is a personal preference. I happen to like both. On track I hands down prefere a sc engine, on the freeway or drag racing I usually always prefere a turbo. To compare the two in a magazine is laughable. Especially comparing a $5K turbo kit with intercooler etc... to an oem product like the sc which ran me $2950 out the door which was built specifically to make TRD a profit and be very reliable and safe. Would love to see the engine numbers from a 2az with the turbonetics kit on it after 80K miles of spirited driving compared to a stock 2az with trd kit. Also just depends on what your looking for. I am sure glad I have a 100K mile warranty compared to 0 warranty with the turbonetics haha.
03-02-2006, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by desertheat
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Originally Posted by josh_trdsparks
Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
Like I said it's would be alot closer. I didn't say it would be exactly what a turbo would put down. If you put an inter cooler on the S/C it's going to bump up the HP just like it would with a turbo kit. Take the intercooler away and bring the boost down and you'll see that #'s get even closer.
When it comes to making power each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. My whole point is why are people comparing the 2. Yeah they both create boost but that pretty much all they have in common. You can't bash the S/C because it doesn't create the power the turbo does when it doesn't make the same amount of boost. The whole S/C kit was designed to work between 5-7lbs of boost. That's what it's tuned for and that's why it works well with the rest of the car.
Agreed to a point. I have yet to see or feel a turbosetup that can match the instant massive throttle responce that a well tuned sc car can produce, on the track this is a monsterous advantage. All it comes down to is a personal preference. I happen to like both. On track I hands down prefere a sc engine, on the freeway or drag racing I usually always prefere a turbo. To compare the two in a magazine is laughable. Especially comparing a $5K turbo kit with intercooler etc... to an oem product like the sc which ran me $2950 out the door which was built specifically to make TRD a profit and be very reliable and safe. Would love to see the engine numbers from a 2az with the turbonetics kit on it after 80K miles of spirited driving compared to a stock 2az with trd kit. Also just depends on what your looking for. I am sure glad I have a 100K mile warranty compared to 0 warranty with the turbonetics haha.
03-02-2006, 07:44 PM
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Some of those items can be applied to a properly designed turbo kit as well.
There isn't a single Turbo on the market that is CARB Legal or as reliable as something that comes straight from Toyco. If there were, it'd be from another manufacturer on the same level as Toyota. I seriously doubt that ZPI, Dezod, or any other companies have the amount of money going into R&D as Toyota, and therein lies the problem.
I don't doubt that the Turbo kits on the market are reliable, but they just don't have the same cost-effective benefits as the Supercharger, nor are they created for the same purpose. You don't slap a turbo on a car and think "Hey, I just kept my warranty!" or "Damn, this is going to last forever!"
You know it's going to need tuning and that there will probably be issues that crop up like the infamous CEL, detonation, busted rings, broken axles, or any other of the myriad of risks involved in running a turbo.
The Supercharger completely eliminates all worry associated with Forced Induction.
If you want the power and the risks associated with it, Turbo is the definitive answer.
If you want to sacrifice a bit of power for a full factory warranty and the reliability of a Toyota product, the TRD S/C is the definitive answer.
It all depends on what you plan to do with the car and if you have the means to make it happen.
03-02-2006, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mattvs
Some of those items can be applied to a properly designed turbo kit as well.
There isn't a single Turbo on the market that is CARB Legal or as reliable as something that comes straight from Toyco. If there were, it'd be from another manufacturer on the same level as Toyota. I seriously doubt that ZPI, Dezod, or any other companies have the amount of money going into R&D as Toyota, and therein lies the problem.
I don't doubt that the Turbo kits on the market are reliable, but they just don't have the same cost-effective benefits as the Supercharger, nor are they created for the same purpose. You don't slap a turbo on a car and think "Hey, I just kept my warranty!" or "Damn, this is going to last forever!"
You know it's going to need tuning and that there will probably be issues that crop up like the infamous CEL, detonation, busted rings, broken axles, or any other of the myriad of risks involved in running a turbo.
The Supercharger completely eliminates all worry associated with Forced Induction.
If you want the power and the risks associated with it, Turbo is the definitive answer.
If you want to sacrifice a bit of power for a full factory warranty and the reliability of a Toyota product, the TRD S/C is the definitive answer.
It all depends on what you plan to do with the car and if you have the means to make it happen.
03-02-2006, 07:47 PM
#15
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Originally Posted by desertheat
Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
The charger only runs 7psi at redline, most users see 6.5 psi which could be a gauge variance. When crusing at say 60mph in 5th gear you only see about 1.5 psi of boost. It is very safe for the engine. Add the pulley and you go up to about 2.5-3 psi while cruising and at absolute redline you see 9.5psi. I like the way this is designed for it only is hard on the engine when you want it to be. Basically takes a n/a engine and makes it a monster n/a engine. With the supercharger the throttle responce especially in the higher rpm is wicked, would love to see a turbo car match the punch of the sc. I shocked the heck out of my buddies srt4 with a stage 3 on it, when we both flored it from 40mph I pulled an honest 1 1/2 lenghs on him, then he spooled and of course he blew by but he could not beleive how quick the tc was just mashing the gas. If it was a road course race or mountain race I think I could have whooped him Makes it very fun on the twisties
I cannot wait to see this article. I love it when companies like turbonetics throw tons and tons of cash to a magazine under the table to dog the competition. I have watched it happen first hand in the car audio world, made me kinda sick / laugh at the same time. Then everyone on the planet reads it and thinks it is gospel haha.
There is no doubt in my mind the turbonetics kit rips the sc a new one, but do not dog the sc just yet hehe. I cannot wait to lay down some dyno numbers on the way I am setting up my car.
Think you missed the whole point of my post
A turbo / sc work the same way when crusing and off bost, that is were it ends with a centerfugal sc. A turbo can make full boost from 1800rpm and up depending on the tune, the vortech sc simply cannot do this which is were engine life comes into play. With a turbo car, slight to mid engine load can put the car into boost. The vortech sc will only see boost depending on rpm. So say if a turbo car starts up a hill, it will run to full boost, the vortech simply will not. It will only boost depending on the engine rpm which will make an engine more reliable in the long run. It is 100% RPM dependant. Also no sorry, mashing the throttle of a turbo car on any I have driven which include everything from custom built race engines to stock setups cannot come close to the throttle responce of a well - decently tuned sc setup period. Until you drive somthing with a well setup sc engine do not even assume. This argument goes back to hot rod days and no one ever wins. Totally comes down to driving style period and preference.
03-02-2006, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by desertheat
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Originally Posted by desertheat
Originally Posted by mahalzkita28
i have to disagree, the s/c puts down about 200whp at 7 psi boost. change the pulley its boosting at 9.5 with nst and putting down about 220whp. the turbonetics kit boosts only 8.5 and its pusing 244whp and 260+ lbs tq. and it also comes with an intercooler which lets the car boost efficiently all the way up to redline. the two would drive different as the s/c is more linear which is better for autox and mountain driving, its all up to preference in driving style and what you want.
The charger only runs 7psi at redline, most users see 6.5 psi which could be a gauge variance. When crusing at say 60mph in 5th gear you only see about 1.5 psi of boost. It is very safe for the engine. Add the pulley and you go up to about 2.5-3 psi while cruising and at absolute redline you see 9.5psi. I like the way this is designed for it only is hard on the engine when you want it to be. Basically takes a n/a engine and makes it a monster n/a engine. With the supercharger the throttle responce especially in the higher rpm is wicked, would love to see a turbo car match the punch of the sc. I shocked the heck out of my buddies srt4 with a stage 3 on it, when we both flored it from 40mph I pulled an honest 1 1/2 lenghs on him, then he spooled and of course he blew by but he could not beleive how quick the tc was just mashing the gas. If it was a road course race or mountain race I think I could have whooped him Makes it very fun on the twisties
I cannot wait to see this article. I love it when companies like turbonetics throw tons and tons of cash to a magazine under the table to dog the competition. I have watched it happen first hand in the car audio world, made me kinda sick / laugh at the same time. Then everyone on the planet reads it and thinks it is gospel haha.
There is no doubt in my mind the turbonetics kit rips the sc a new one, but do not dog the sc just yet hehe. I cannot wait to lay down some dyno numbers on the way I am setting up my car.
Think you missed the whole point of my post
A turbo / sc work the same way when crusing and off bost, that is were it ends with a centerfugal sc. A turbo can make full boost from 1800rpm and up depending on the tune, the vortech sc simply cannot do this. It is 100% RPM dependant. Also no sorry, mashing the throttle of a turbo car on any I have driven which include everything from custom built race engines to stock setups cannot come close to the throttle responce of a well - decently tuned sc setup period. Until you drive somthing with a well setup sc engine do not even assume. This argument goes back to hot rod days and no one ever wins. Totally comes down to driving style period and preference.
03-02-2006, 07:50 PM
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check back with me in about a month when im pushing 250whp with an intercooled supercharger.
Im really glad soeone else brought up the fact that the s/c is more reliable for any form of road racing. Being my preference in driving that is why i chose the s/c myself, now im just on a quest to get the same numbers as a turbo, im close, just a month away.
Im really glad soeone else brought up the fact that the s/c is more reliable for any form of road racing. Being my preference in driving that is why i chose the s/c myself, now im just on a quest to get the same numbers as a turbo, im close, just a month away.
03-02-2006, 07:54 PM
#18
and I am right on your **** haha.
I think they can both be very very reliable, but for road course or short track, I am all over a supercharged engine. I may have gone turbo but I specifically wanted a 100K mile toyota warranty on my car and I got it. So I am happy!
haha. I think they can both be very very reliable, but for road course or short track, I am all over a supercharged engine. I may have gone turbo but I specifically wanted a 100K mile toyota warranty on my car and I got it. So I am happy!
03-02-2006, 10:16 PM
#19
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I heard the words "no parasitic loss" said above about the turbo.. a turbo creates a restrictive loss.. less than a supercharger, which is what makes them more efficient.. but a turbo is no where near a lossless system. You absolutely cannot gain power without paying for it some way.
03-03-2006, 12:52 AM
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I would say any type of force induction is good. 
The one point that made the biggest difference since I live in Cali.... is that the SC is 50 state carb legal. Since the Ca smog laws are really strict. I don't want to worry about the cops having any reason to take my car.
I had a turbo in a previous car. Yet I never really wanted to drive the car because of the same reason as the car could be impounded. I couldn't even get a legal smog check. I needed to spend twice as much for smog check.
With the SC you can just adjust the pulley and get more power, still being smog legal.
So I would say it would be person specific and what ever choice that person makes that would be the best choice for that person.
The one point that made the biggest difference since I live in Cali.... is that the SC is 50 state carb legal. Since the Ca smog laws are really strict. I don't want to worry about the cops having any reason to take my car.
I had a turbo in a previous car. Yet I never really wanted to drive the car because of the same reason as the car could be impounded. I couldn't even get a legal smog check. I needed to spend twice as much for smog check.
With the SC you can just adjust the pulley and get more power, still being smog legal.
So I would say it would be person specific and what ever choice that person makes that would be the best choice for that person.