Do I have to do anything to the engine if I get a ZPI Satge
02-28-2006, 05:05 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by Squishface
The tC has an aluminum block which will not withstand very HIGH boost pressure and horsepower.
Bottom line, if you are looking for longevity, buy a Diesel. If you want great performance and economy in a "sporty type" of car, it's hard to beat a Tc with a Stage 0 kit. Shift it early and change your oil more often than you typically would, and the engine will probably outlast the paint. IMHO.
02-28-2006, 06:25 AM
#24
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Toyota overbuilds engines by a huge margin. The 2AZ should handle the extra 20% load like it's 10% but that's still cutting down significantly on the engine's life.
250,000 miles is what I was told is factory standards. So, say, Turbonetics, has probably 200,000 miles on one of their test tCs.
The aluminum block on the tC.. a lot of people discredit it because it's aluminum. One thing that people mostly don't know is that the sleeves are highly ductile iron sleeves casted into the block. They'll easily handle 400 hp. They may handle 500 hp but not as well. The rods will see up to 350 hp I'm sure. The piston rings are the first to break. After that, it's quite a distance to break anything else.
But the catch is none of this is over time. Like I said, an unmanaged, unintercooled stage 0 at 80k miles will very much impress me.
250,000 miles is what I was told is factory standards. So, say, Turbonetics, has probably 200,000 miles on one of their test tCs.
The aluminum block on the tC.. a lot of people discredit it because it's aluminum. One thing that people mostly don't know is that the sleeves are highly ductile iron sleeves casted into the block. They'll easily handle 400 hp. They may handle 500 hp but not as well. The rods will see up to 350 hp I'm sure. The piston rings are the first to break. After that, it's quite a distance to break anything else.
But the catch is none of this is over time. Like I said, an unmanaged, unintercooled stage 0 at 80k miles will very much impress me.
02-28-2006, 06:45 AM
#25
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Because of the "smart" computer in these cars, I don't see where 80k miles would be any problem at all on a Stage 0 car. Have you seen the A/F graphs of the Stg 0's? It's like 11.2:1, which is VERY safe.
Ductile iron sleeves are also in all of the aluminum LS1/LS2/LS6 engines. Some of those guys are making over 1200Hp with stock blocks!! Same thing with the '03 Cobra engines. In comparison, (4cyl vs 8cyl) you would think that 500hp should be achievable. I do agree that the rings are probably the weak point in boosting the Tc engine. But if Toyota feels comfortable enough to add supercharged boost to the Tc and still honor the warranty, the same amount of turbo boost should be even safer.
I guess time will tell.
Ductile iron sleeves are also in all of the aluminum LS1/LS2/LS6 engines. Some of those guys are making over 1200Hp with stock blocks!! Same thing with the '03 Cobra engines. In comparison, (4cyl vs 8cyl) you would think that 500hp should be achievable. I do agree that the rings are probably the weak point in boosting the Tc engine. But if Toyota feels comfortable enough to add supercharged boost to the Tc and still honor the warranty, the same amount of turbo boost should be even safer.
I guess time will tell.
02-28-2006, 06:58 AM
#26
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Aren't the LS engines closed deck aluminum blocks?
I have a lot of faith in the 2AZ but I still would rather err on the side of caution and assume <80k miles without management and cooler.
The thing about the supercharger is that it builds boost linearly. It'll be nicer on the open deck sleeves than the constant on/off boost of a turbo. Since the 2AZ is pretty big, it'll spool most turbos pretty quickly so the transition from boost to vacuum and back happens very quickly which is, of course, a strain on the block to withstand a barrage of high and low cylinder pressure.
I think it's just because I don't know all that much. For me, turbochargers are still a little bit of black magic and voodoo so I just assume that a turbo, unmanaged and uncool, will cause bad things soon. Still, it's better than a bad tune.
I have a lot of faith in the 2AZ but I still would rather err on the side of caution and assume <80k miles without management and cooler.
The thing about the supercharger is that it builds boost linearly. It'll be nicer on the open deck sleeves than the constant on/off boost of a turbo. Since the 2AZ is pretty big, it'll spool most turbos pretty quickly so the transition from boost to vacuum and back happens very quickly which is, of course, a strain on the block to withstand a barrage of high and low cylinder pressure.
I think it's just because I don't know all that much. For me, turbochargers are still a little bit of black magic and voodoo so I just assume that a turbo, unmanaged and uncool, will cause bad things soon. Still, it's better than a bad tune.
02-28-2006, 11:57 AM
#28
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^^I would just think that you would put 5 to 6 grand in the Evo engine, and Ultimately decrease the life of it's engine as well, by turning up the boost. Not to mention, they have a crap load of problems if you do the research.
02-28-2006, 12:02 PM
#29
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If you were to go 80k miles on just a bottom line Stage 0, and the motor were to crap out after that 80k.....I would just go to my nearest yard pile and find anoter tC motor and slap the Stage 0 back on.... 
02-28-2006, 01:40 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
If you were to go 80k miles on just a bottom line Stage 0, and the motor were to crap out after that 80k.....I would just go to my nearest yard pile and find anoter tC motor and slap the Stage 0 back on....
02-28-2006, 08:10 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by filmnews
I was thinking about getting the Stage 1 ZPI Turbo. But, what makes the Evo's engines so much stronger internally, then the TC's.
I would never buy a mitsubishi ever again.. With all the problems they have (paint, transmition, A/C, ect) and the insanely crappy re-sale, it's not worth it.
02-28-2006, 10:35 PM
#32
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Most motors will have some kind of issues way before 250,000 miles on the odo. Thats not what i'm arguing about, but that was a fairly good point by kungpaosamuraiii.
Anyone will tell you, running boost on a n/a motor with no intercooler, and without at least a few minor internal mods is stupid if you plan to keep it in the long run. Yes, i know ZPI says its possible and plenty of people agree with them. Thats fine, its not my car or motor that will suffer in the longer run. I wouldn't be surprised if this year or next year we start seeing some tC owners having issues with their stage 0's running exactly how ZPI claims is safe.
20% more load with boost, as i've said before, may not seem like a lot but over an extended period of time. It will show and it can be costly to fix. Play it safe, do it right the first time. Besides, prep-building you can only benefit from. You'll see more whp, your motor will be that much more protected and you can relax knowing you don't have that thought in the back of your mind of the possible effects 2,3 years down the road.
Anyone will tell you, running boost on a n/a motor with no intercooler, and without at least a few minor internal mods is stupid if you plan to keep it in the long run. Yes, i know ZPI says its possible and plenty of people agree with them. Thats fine, its not my car or motor that will suffer in the longer run. I wouldn't be surprised if this year or next year we start seeing some tC owners having issues with their stage 0's running exactly how ZPI claims is safe.
20% more load with boost, as i've said before, may not seem like a lot but over an extended period of time. It will show and it can be costly to fix. Play it safe, do it right the first time. Besides, prep-building you can only benefit from. You'll see more whp, your motor will be that much more protected and you can relax knowing you don't have that thought in the back of your mind of the possible effects 2,3 years down the road.
02-28-2006, 10:37 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by DouBLeJ16
Originally Posted by filmnews
I was thinking about getting the Stage 1 ZPI Turbo. But, what makes the Evo's engines so much stronger internally, then the TC's.
I would never buy a mitsubishi ever again.. With all the problems they have (paint, transmition, A/C, ect) and the insanely crappy re-sale, it's not worth it.
03-01-2006, 04:57 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
Most motors will have some kind of issues way before 250,000 miles on the odo. Thats not what i'm arguing about, but that was a fairly good point by kungpaosamuraiii.
Anyone will tell you, running boost on a n/a motor with no intercooler, and without at least a few minor internal mods is stupid if you plan to keep it in the long run. Yes, i know ZPI says its possible and plenty of people agree with them. Thats fine, its not my car or motor that will suffer in the longer run. I wouldn't be surprised if this year or next year we start seeing some tC owners having issues with their stage 0's running exactly how ZPI claims is safe.
20% more load with boost, as i've said before, may not seem like a lot but over an extended period of time. It will show and it can be costly to fix. Play it safe, do it right the first time. Besides, prep-building you can only benefit from. You'll see more whp, your motor will be that much more protected and you can relax knowing you don't have that thought in the back of your mind of the possible effects 2,3 years down the road.
Anyone will tell you, running boost on a n/a motor with no intercooler, and without at least a few minor internal mods is stupid if you plan to keep it in the long run. Yes, i know ZPI says its possible and plenty of people agree with them. Thats fine, its not my car or motor that will suffer in the longer run. I wouldn't be surprised if this year or next year we start seeing some tC owners having issues with their stage 0's running exactly how ZPI claims is safe.
20% more load with boost, as i've said before, may not seem like a lot but over an extended period of time. It will show and it can be costly to fix. Play it safe, do it right the first time. Besides, prep-building you can only benefit from. You'll see more whp, your motor will be that much more protected and you can relax knowing you don't have that thought in the back of your mind of the possible effects 2,3 years down the road.
Ok Killer, I have read your post, and finally felt like adding my 2cents on your comments.
First off, if you read and pay attention to the Average run of the mill tuner, they DON'T build up the motors. Turbo companies know this, and they create turbo kit systems DESIGNED to run off the stock internals of that engine. WHY? Why would some company do that you ask? Bottom Line...That's Where The Money Is At! For every Built Turbo Motor on the streets there is probably 10-20 UN-Built motors running the same turbo. This isn't an opinion, this is fact. Companies know that our lifestyle consist of Early teen to Mid 20 year old people, who don't have a lot of money. If every kid had to build their motor just to Buy the companies turbo charge system...They wouldn't sale any turbos.
Second, Do you Honestly THINK that someone one is going to run a Stage 0 for a long duration of time WITHOUT upgrading anything to squeeze more HP out of the motor? I don't see someone just slapping on a Stage 0, and then say "Well, I think I'm going to Stop here". No, 9 out of 10 are going to want the bling bling factor of the FMIC, they are going to want to up the boost eventually. Just a matter of time. And they know what it will take to get them there, Hence they would be making additional purchases down the road. But if they wanted a turbo for the sake of having a turbo NOW, then a Stage 0 is right up their alley. ESPECIALLY for the tuner who is on a budget.
03-02-2006, 01:55 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Originally Posted by killerxromances
Most motors will have some kind of issues way before 250,000 miles on the odo. Thats not what i'm arguing about, but that was a fairly good point by kungpaosamuraiii.
Anyone will tell you, running boost on a n/a motor with no intercooler, and without at least a few minor internal mods is stupid if you plan to keep it in the long run. Yes, i know ZPI says its possible and plenty of people agree with them. Thats fine, its not my car or motor that will suffer in the longer run. I wouldn't be surprised if this year or next year we start seeing some tC owners having issues with their stage 0's running exactly how ZPI claims is safe.
20% more load with boost, as i've said before, may not seem like a lot but over an extended period of time. It will show and it can be costly to fix. Play it safe, do it right the first time. Besides, prep-building you can only benefit from. You'll see more whp, your motor will be that much more protected and you can relax knowing you don't have that thought in the back of your mind of the possible effects 2,3 years down the road.
Anyone will tell you, running boost on a n/a motor with no intercooler, and without at least a few minor internal mods is stupid if you plan to keep it in the long run. Yes, i know ZPI says its possible and plenty of people agree with them. Thats fine, its not my car or motor that will suffer in the longer run. I wouldn't be surprised if this year or next year we start seeing some tC owners having issues with their stage 0's running exactly how ZPI claims is safe.
20% more load with boost, as i've said before, may not seem like a lot but over an extended period of time. It will show and it can be costly to fix. Play it safe, do it right the first time. Besides, prep-building you can only benefit from. You'll see more whp, your motor will be that much more protected and you can relax knowing you don't have that thought in the back of your mind of the possible effects 2,3 years down the road.
Ok Killer, I have read your post, and finally felt like adding my 2cents on your comments.
First off, if you read and pay attention to the Average run of the mill tuner, they DON'T build up the motors. Turbo companies know this, and they create turbo kit systems DESIGNED to run off the stock internals of that engine. WHY? Why would some company do that you ask? Bottom Line...That's Where The Money Is At! For every Built Turbo Motor on the streets there is probably 10-20 UN-Built motors running the same turbo. This isn't an opinion, this is fact. Companies know that our lifestyle consist of Early teen to Mid 20 year old people, who don't have a lot of money. If every kid had to build their motor just to Buy the companies turbo charge system...They wouldn't sale any turbos.
Second, Do you Honestly THINK that someone one is going to run a Stage 0 for a long duration of time WITHOUT upgrading anything to squeeze more HP out of the motor? I don't see someone just slapping on a Stage 0, and then say "Well, I think I'm going to Stop here". No, 9 out of 10 are going to want the bling bling factor of the FMIC, they are going to want to up the boost eventually. Just a matter of time. And they know what it will take to get them there, Hence they would be making additional purchases down the road. But if they wanted a turbo for the sake of having a turbo NOW, then a Stage 0 is right up their alley. ESPECIALLY for the tuner who is on a budget.
I get what your saying, and for the most part i agree with you.
03-02-2006, 12:34 PM
#36
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All of this discussion is worthless. As someone mentioned before, boost does not hurt engines, timing does.
To make a turbo kit last, the engine must run enough fuel and low enough timing to keep from detonating. That is all that is required........especially at such low boost.
Without seeing logs from someone with a stage zero kit, you are only speculating, so why bother....The problem with N/A motors made into turbo motors is the lack of a knock sensor. If the engine doesn't know it's detonating it cannot make appropriate adjustments to timing.
To make a turbo kit last, the engine must run enough fuel and low enough timing to keep from detonating. That is all that is required........especially at such low boost.
Without seeing logs from someone with a stage zero kit, you are only speculating, so why bother....The problem with N/A motors made into turbo motors is the lack of a knock sensor. If the engine doesn't know it's detonating it cannot make appropriate adjustments to timing.
03-02-2006, 02:17 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
I agree, most people will want to upgrade down the road. However, i see a ton of newbies on this site and with a company like ZPI claiming its completely safe, over a long period of time to run the stage 0 without a intercooler, slightly bumped up internals and a few other things to ensure the saftey is pretty ignorant. About 80% of stage 0 owners don't have anything else but maybe exhaust and a few other things. No internal work, most i've seen don't have any fuel management and i've only seen two with a intercooler.
I get what your saying, and for the most part i agree with you.
I get what your saying, and for the most part i agree with you.
That may or may not be the case. But I just don't see anyone that does purchase a Stage 0 running a very long time without at least getting an Emanage. The claim of longevity will never be seen, cause I don't think anyone will run long without making changes. Also, I have to mention that the TRD S/C is pretty much the same as far as being just a straight slap on. It has a reflash, which is pretty much the only difference, seeing as how the Stage 0 you run it off the stock computer with just a recalibration of the MAF.
03-02-2006, 02:18 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by tcengel
All of this discussion is worthless. As someone mentioned before, boost does not hurt engines, detonation does.
To make a turbo kit last, the engine must run enough fuel and low enough timing to keep from detonating. That is all that is required........especially at such low boost.
Without seeing logs from someone with a stage zero kit, you are only speculating, so why bother....The problem with N/A motors made into turbo motors is the lack of a knock sensor. If the engine doesn't know it's detonating it cannot make appropriate adjustments to timing.
To make a turbo kit last, the engine must run enough fuel and low enough timing to keep from detonating. That is all that is required........especially at such low boost.
Without seeing logs from someone with a stage zero kit, you are only speculating, so why bother....The problem with N/A motors made into turbo motors is the lack of a knock sensor. If the engine doesn't know it's detonating it cannot make appropriate adjustments to timing.
03-03-2006, 02:25 AM
#39
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Guys, I suggest you download the TRD supercharger installtion instructions. There are 84 part included in the install. Starts with a new thermostat and finishes with a new air box and tons of extras like injectors, spark plugs and re-flashing the ECU. This is what needs to be done to keep the engine running properly for the remainder of the warranty and we are adding less than 50HP. I think it would be safe to assume that slapping a stage zero turbo by itself is not going to provide the same level of protection and longevity to the system...
03-03-2006, 02:39 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Also, I have to mention that the TRD S/C is pretty much the same as far as being just a straight slap on. It has a reflash, which is pretty much the only difference, seeing as how the Stage 0 you run it off the stock computer with just a recalibration of the MAF.
How about driving the MAF sensor out of range cause thats exactly what happened with Unseens car