Gauging interest in close ratio 6spd with LSD transaxles
02-25-2006, 02:28 AM
#1
Senior Member
SL Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Morgan, Utah
Posts: 1,182
Gauging interest in close ratio 6spd with LSD transaxles
This is a real opportunity here guys but it would take some very serious commitment by 10 that area willing to invest a pretty sizable amount of money. I will post this on the latest gen Camry forums as well because it would fit the 4cyl manual tranny cars, may fit the V6's but not sure on that yet.
1) we would have to pick either close ratio, mid or wide ratio and the particular ones we wanted, all would have the same set.
2) 5spd seems better for drag cars, 6 for everything else, we get to choose only one or the other, all will have the same gearing and ratios.
3) final drive ratios will be optional on individual units but the exact ratios that would be available have to be determined once more data is gathered.
4) they could build them as dog boxes but those are not something for the street so not planning to go that route. (best used on pure race cars only)
5) all design and machine work would be done at a very highly respected manf facility and sold under their brand name.
6) The LSD or the gear sets could be purchased seperately or together, just the parts alone or a possibly trade in program, ship your unit out and receive one back ready to drop into the car. BUT, ten gear sets are an absolute minimum.
7) This is going to take a very serious investment and commitment with a substantial down payement that is none refundable but transferable if you want out, as long as the new owner pays an additional amount of deposit, just to much money at stake here to have some unfinished business eating up alot of capital.
Please do not ask a bunch of questions, there is no more to offer right now, not until I hear if there are enough seriously interested people with the money to do this. No offense meant but I do not have the time to play around with this, we do it or we do not;)
9) APPROX prices, could vary quite a bit, would not know the final price until prototyping is done or nearly done. The higher price should be the absolute maximum and I would expect more around the middel between highest and lowest.
A) LSD only, not installed, $1000
B) Gear set only, not installed, $3,000-4500, rather a large swing but that is the way it is for now.
C) both together, $4,000-5,500
D) installed and ready to go into the car, in your case or a substitute case(depending how this all works out) add approximately $500 plus shipping.
So, we are somewhere between $4k to $6k to go all out with this and that is a heck of alot of money to invest into a $16k car, not sure there are enough of us interested in doing this but sure would be cool do get it done!!!!
Again, please do not ask alot of questions and please refrain from crapping on this thread, if to costly for you or you just do not believe in this then we fully understand, it is not for everybody and not meant to be. Without a huge amount of committment it will not happen either.
If you are truely insterested and can afford to do this, let me know. Start to finish would be a few months at least, as accurate as possible time line would be drawn up once we find if there are enough of us to make this happen.
Thanks, have a great weekend!
Rick
1) we would have to pick either close ratio, mid or wide ratio and the particular ones we wanted, all would have the same set.
2) 5spd seems better for drag cars, 6 for everything else, we get to choose only one or the other, all will have the same gearing and ratios.
3) final drive ratios will be optional on individual units but the exact ratios that would be available have to be determined once more data is gathered.
4) they could build them as dog boxes but those are not something for the street so not planning to go that route. (best used on pure race cars only)
5) all design and machine work would be done at a very highly respected manf facility and sold under their brand name.
6) The LSD or the gear sets could be purchased seperately or together, just the parts alone or a possibly trade in program, ship your unit out and receive one back ready to drop into the car. BUT, ten gear sets are an absolute minimum.
7) This is going to take a very serious investment and commitment with a substantial down payement that is none refundable but transferable if you want out, as long as the new owner pays an additional amount of deposit, just to much money at stake here to have some unfinished business eating up alot of capital.
Please do not ask a bunch of questions, there is no more to offer right now, not until I hear if there are enough seriously interested people with the money to do this. No offense meant but I do not have the time to play around with this, we do it or we do not;)9) APPROX prices, could vary quite a bit, would not know the final price until prototyping is done or nearly done. The higher price should be the absolute maximum and I would expect more around the middel between highest and lowest.
A) LSD only, not installed, $1000
B) Gear set only, not installed, $3,000-4500, rather a large swing but that is the way it is for now.
C) both together, $4,000-5,500
D) installed and ready to go into the car, in your case or a substitute case(depending how this all works out) add approximately $500 plus shipping.
So, we are somewhere between $4k to $6k to go all out with this and that is a heck of alot of money to invest into a $16k car, not sure there are enough of us interested in doing this but sure would be cool do get it done!!!!
Again, please do not ask alot of questions and please refrain from crapping on this thread, if to costly for you or you just do not believe in this then we fully understand, it is not for everybody and not meant to be. Without a huge amount of committment it will not happen either.
If you are truely insterested and can afford to do this, let me know. Start to finish would be a few months at least, as accurate as possible time line would be drawn up once we find if there are enough of us to make this happen.
Thanks, have a great weekend!
Rick
02-25-2006, 11:27 AM
#5
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 627
I think this is a great idea but it is my feeling that there is not enough seriously modded tC's right now that would really benefit for this upgrade. I think it is just too early to be marketable even for 10 people. Maybe in a couple years but really we need to start seeing more people being serious with extreme engine and suspension modding. Other wise I would love to see this happen especially if the new setup would be a lot tougher then the stock setup.
Anyways Good Luck!
Anyways Good Luck!
02-25-2006, 05:23 PM
#6
Senior Member
SL Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Morgan, Utah
Posts: 1,182
I know, I am just hoping we can dig up 10 as that is the bare minimum to make this happen.
UPDATE: Though I do not have the time for all the calculations just yet, I have some ideas to present to the manf and for you guys to think over.
A) Go all out nuts, forget using stock parts unless they just happen to fall into the realm of our end goal, best setup possible, damm the cost!!!
B) Do the above but keep it a 5spd, will save a fair amount but overall not as big a percentage as the next level down.
C) It is possible that we may get lucky and once we do the math, use the stock Camry E351 tranny final drive as this would allow(unless they found any major weakness in the stock output shaft) a great savings on the whole package. Then, if some of the stock ratios work, only certain gears would need to be made, namely first raised a bit, third dropped down closer to second, forth and fifth, need to do the math to know. If this could work and we kept it a 5 spd, the cost would be far less painfull.
A six speed will probably require at least on new shaft, very expensive part indeed(who knows, maybe we could get lucky there as well, I sure want a 6spd, just to know all that money invested resulted in having one more gear to me is a part of why I mod, to be different
________________________________________
Used Camry boxes are not that costly, not alot around but since they do not break in the average car they are not in demand, thus not expensive to purchase. It could be less expensive to buy one, or even the stock output shaft and ring gear new from Toyota(sure we can get some sort of deal;)
The final drive in the Camry is a 3.944, much better than our 4.24, top speed it alot higher, 156MPH at 6,500 RPMand should be ok for anybodies needs, raising the redline would see 180MPH at 7.500 RPM according to the charts I just read. (Those numbers may be from a larger diameter tire package than what we have, will look into that as well)
The 5th gear could be modded as well or keep 4.24 and mod 1st gear, etc.
I have found 2nd great to be about perfect for autocross use, never had to shift to first even NA, did go into third once or twice per run on different courses but that is expected on a car with good acceleration, the stock tC is very quick for our rated power in that situation
My intial opionion is to have.
A) a higher overall final drive for more top speed
B) taller first gear to make is usefull and a better match to second gear.
C) second gear just about the way it is now(will require a ratio change since the final drive is changed)
D) third gear dropped to match with second better.
E) forth and fifth to be determined.
With the rather broad power band we enjoy and the right ratios, a 5 spd may be all we really need. (Unlike those super high reving low torque motors that need every gear they can get to stay in the powerband;)
It is just possible we can make this into a very reasonably priced solution.
I want to make this known to all the Camry guys out there but since I may be the one making this happen do not want to get into trouble as not a sponsor on those forums. I have not decided if I would even want to make any money on this or not, not the end goal here, but if it does become a reality and does take alot of my time I will have to make at least some to make up for taking away from my regular business profits.
So, if you guys want to see this happen, please spread the word, the more that know about this the better!!!
AND, I have read a bit about second gen MR2's looking into the E351 and possibly E350(tC) gear boxes, maybe we can dig up ten easier than it seems
Spread the word guys!!!
Rick
UPDATE: Though I do not have the time for all the calculations just yet, I have some ideas to present to the manf and for you guys to think over.
A) Go all out nuts, forget using stock parts unless they just happen to fall into the realm of our end goal, best setup possible, damm the cost!!!
B) Do the above but keep it a 5spd, will save a fair amount but overall not as big a percentage as the next level down.
C) It is possible that we may get lucky and once we do the math, use the stock Camry E351 tranny final drive as this would allow(unless they found any major weakness in the stock output shaft) a great savings on the whole package. Then, if some of the stock ratios work, only certain gears would need to be made, namely first raised a bit, third dropped down closer to second, forth and fifth, need to do the math to know. If this could work and we kept it a 5 spd, the cost would be far less painfull.
A six speed will probably require at least on new shaft, very expensive part indeed(who knows, maybe we could get lucky there as well, I sure want a 6spd, just to know all that money invested resulted in having one more gear to me is a part of why I mod, to be different
________________________________________
Used Camry boxes are not that costly, not alot around but since they do not break in the average car they are not in demand, thus not expensive to purchase. It could be less expensive to buy one, or even the stock output shaft and ring gear new from Toyota(sure we can get some sort of deal;)
The final drive in the Camry is a 3.944, much better than our 4.24, top speed it alot higher, 156MPH at 6,500 RPMand should be ok for anybodies needs, raising the redline would see 180MPH at 7.500 RPM according to the charts I just read. (Those numbers may be from a larger diameter tire package than what we have, will look into that as well)
The 5th gear could be modded as well or keep 4.24 and mod 1st gear, etc.
I have found 2nd great to be about perfect for autocross use, never had to shift to first even NA, did go into third once or twice per run on different courses but that is expected on a car with good acceleration, the stock tC is very quick for our rated power in that situation
My intial opionion is to have.
A) a higher overall final drive for more top speed
B) taller first gear to make is usefull and a better match to second gear.
C) second gear just about the way it is now(will require a ratio change since the final drive is changed)
D) third gear dropped to match with second better.
E) forth and fifth to be determined.
With the rather broad power band we enjoy and the right ratios, a 5 spd may be all we really need. (Unlike those super high reving low torque motors that need every gear they can get to stay in the powerband;)
It is just possible we can make this into a very reasonably priced solution.
I want to make this known to all the Camry guys out there but since I may be the one making this happen do not want to get into trouble as not a sponsor on those forums. I have not decided if I would even want to make any money on this or not, not the end goal here, but if it does become a reality and does take alot of my time I will have to make at least some to make up for taking away from my regular business profits.
So, if you guys want to see this happen, please spread the word, the more that know about this the better!!!
AND, I have read a bit about second gen MR2's looking into the E351 and possibly E350(tC) gear boxes, maybe we can dig up ten easier than it seems
Spread the word guys!!!
Rick
02-25-2006, 05:49 PM
#7
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 20
raamaudio,
I totally agree with your second post and the gear ratios, also about the 5spd. If the ratio of 5th gear was better that would make highway driving better. I typed a huge PM saying most of what you said in your second post then closed the browser on accident.
Right now i have a close ratio Muncie M22 in my 71 nova ss. Look up the ratios on that if you get a chance. I love it other than first should be a little shorter and needs an overdrive. Of course if you do that its no longer close ratio. If you could cut the cost I would be interested.
I totally agree with your second post and the gear ratios, also about the 5spd. If the ratio of 5th gear was better that would make highway driving better. I typed a huge PM saying most of what you said in your second post then closed the browser on accident.
Right now i have a close ratio Muncie M22 in my 71 nova ss. Look up the ratios on that if you get a chance. I love it other than first should be a little shorter and needs an overdrive. Of course if you do that its no longer close ratio. If you could cut the cost I would be interested.
02-25-2006, 07:55 PM
#10
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 20
I would think people that can dump money into thier cars for turbos and superchargers would be interested just for drivability or racing purposes. I dont have a super or turbo charger but i hate 1st and 5th gears, the others are tolerable.
02-25-2006, 07:56 PM
#11
Senior Member
SL Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Morgan, Utah
Posts: 1,182
Unfortunately I agree with you, that is why we need to bring in the Camry guys and the MR2 guys as well, we may just get enough interest but I am not going to hold my breath or invest one dime until that becomes a reality;)
Besides, some guys have automatics
Just busting your chops buddy
In the mean time our PG LSD will be in our car next week as soon as as the differential is done at the machine shop.
Rick
Besides, some guys have automatics
Just busting your chops buddy
In the mean time our PG LSD will be in our car next week as soon as as the differential is done at the machine shop.
Rick
02-25-2006, 07:58 PM
#12
Senior Member
SL Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Morgan, Utah
Posts: 1,182
I think the only hope is to cut costs so I am looking into that primarily. This will probably eliminate a 6spd option but I will at least look into it as far as I can, maybe, just maybe it can be done reasoanbly.
Rick
Rick
02-25-2006, 08:27 PM
#14
Senior Member
SL Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Morgan, Utah
Posts: 1,182
Impossible buddy, taller tires are your only option and it will work, besides 1st is far to low anyway;)
Labor alone would be more than $500, it is a BIG job to take out a transaxle and tear it down. The whole output shaft would have to be put into a vice and the gears pulled except 5th which is machined in. A new shaft would then be used and the gears reinstalled, the the ring gear needs unbolted from the differential and replaced then aligned which not many can do properly.
So, just put on taller tires
Or, get a Camry tranny and install that, they are not horribly costly with low miles from the wreckinb yard
Rick
Labor alone would be more than $500, it is a BIG job to take out a transaxle and tear it down. The whole output shaft would have to be put into a vice and the gears pulled except 5th which is machined in. A new shaft would then be used and the gears reinstalled, the the ring gear needs unbolted from the differential and replaced then aligned which not many can do properly.
So, just put on taller tires
Or, get a Camry tranny and install that, they are not horribly costly with low miles from the wreckinb yard
Rick
02-25-2006, 10:22 PM
#15
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Well I will have to think on this one for a few before I comit on anything, But I might be willing to do this.
It will involve me getting rid of my Auto TC and buying a 5 speed then dropping yours in.
There is no way I would do that for a 5 speed option, it would have to have a 6 speed for me to even think about it.
Get some numbers together and post this again and I will give you a solid yes or no when I know what it is your going to be doing.
It will involve me getting rid of my Auto TC and buying a 5 speed then dropping yours in.
There is no way I would do that for a 5 speed option, it would have to have a 6 speed for me to even think about it.
Get some numbers together and post this again and I will give you a solid yes or no when I know what it is your going to be doing.
02-25-2006, 11:03 PM
#17
Senior Member
OhioScions
SL Member
Team ScioNRG
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 836
Great ideas. Would love to see it in final production. I've a feeling this is something people would invest in last. AFTER the suspension, AFTER the I/H/E, After adding on F/I or whatever, THEN you work on making more to the wheels stick. I certainly couldn't comitt, but I would hope enough could to get the ball rolling ;)
02-26-2006, 01:52 AM
#19
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 612
Originally Posted by raamaudio
Or, get a Camry tranny and install that, they are not horribly costly with low miles from the wreckinb yard
Rick
I'll probably do that eventually, if it's a bolt on part and the speedo still reads correctly. I've bolted in a trans or two in my time, although i'm starting to feel a bit too old to keep messing with stuff like that...
