purevision01

I would build the head = cams, valves springs and retainers... Oh and get rid of the emanage and go to the ultimate or hydra depending on how deep you pockets are... You can go with a fully built head and emanage for about 2400 or go with the hydra for 1700... I guarantee you make more power with a fully built head keeping you current setup up... I also suggest springs and retainers because you reduce the chance or floating or even worse dropping the valves and most any cam that is worth buying will require stiffer valve springs. Just my 2 cents.

Mr_Meaty

i was under the impression that building the head only gives you the OPORTUNITY to build more power by upping teh boost safely...would building the head and not changing the compression add any power on it's own?

aen

better air flow = more power freed up

also cooler air = higher hp blha blah blah

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

meth/water injector is still the cheapest way to get more hp on same boost level.. other option are often costly and require other supporting mods + tune.. might as well spend on building basic motor upgrades like piston, rods, valves and up the boost

Mr_Meaty

...race gas...

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

race gas too.. you would need a tune though so you should be able to switch map right away.. those arent easily accessed you know. And I think you have to change your wastegate valve for leaded fuel or else it wound last long.. your O2 sensor if placed close to the manifold could also be toasted with higher EGTs.. it can give you power, you just have to modify some stuff to make some components last

purevision01

Building the head will net the highest hp gain... Raise gas only decreases the preignition of the air fuel mixture, meaning if you run raise gas, you should in turn run high levels of boost.... If you dont believe that, take your car to the track and run it on pump gas as is, then throw so race gas in there... Even a 50/50 mixture (which i see as pointless) will result in slower mile per hour and add a couple tenths to the 1/4 mile time, unless the reduced hp actually causes the car to hook up better... but thats a whole other can of worms... If you want to run higher octane ratings, have the fuel system built to handle alcohol and run on e85... it has an octain rating of about 105 or highier depending on the concentration or alcohol gas mixture.

Building the head does a couple of things... but the main purpose is to make the motor more efficient... Adding cams, depending on the setup, will either increase the valve travel allowing more air into the cylinder in a shorter period of time (for n/a purposes) or it will increase the time the valve stays open allowing the intake charge to force all the exhaust gas out the cylinder (forced induction purposes), or it will do both (full race purposes). Any way AEN is half correct, more air by itself doesnt make more power, but more air and more fuel does... So building the head will allow the motor to pump more air in and out the motor more effeciently but now you will need larger injectors or even changing up to a return line setup (depending on how much power you are trying to make) to supply the fuel to maintain an 11.8 or 11.7 to 1 air fuel ratio... If you just add air, the ratio will jump to 12.xx or even highier, creating detonation and sending your motor to the metal scrap yard.

By the way, how much power are you tryin to make... In my experience the stock fuel delivery system is only good to handle about 400hp before leaning out... and that was done using twin 255 lph and 850cc injectors.

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

running race gas when tuned can give some hp gains too right? race gas decreases chance of preignition and that means you can have a good room to run a more aggressive afrs and spark advance will get you gains.. without altering the tune, race gas will be pointless like you mentioned it only decreases chance of preignition..

purevision01

You can run more aggressive tunes yes... but just dumping race gas in the tank will cause you to loose power because it is harder to ignite... but again the choice of running race gas should be thought over and determined by first determining the objectives of the car... If you dont know where you want to be, how do you know what route to take... a track car is set up differently then a drag car, and that is set up differently then a street car... When I build cars, race gas is the last option for power, for the simple fact that it is soo expensive and getting it can be a hassle.

SoFloTC

iTrader: (3)

well i wanna hit a nice 310-340 whp without doing rods and pistons just yet. Obviously im getting the walboro pump and upgraded fuel rail. im doing meth injection as well. DD im most likely going to do 10 lbs so im hoping my 10 is over 300 whp and ill have another setup for 12 lbs.

SoFloTC

iTrader: (3)

i kno my friend dumped race gas in his srt-4 with no tune and he was alot quicker.

B_Real45

SoFlo..

Just a reminder - even though the tranny will be built, it will still have a lot more drivetrain loss than a manual. So you'll need more psi to reach 300whp than a manual car would.

SoFloTC

iTrader: (3)

ya i figured that but i did put 242 at 6 psi.. so it wasnt that bad. my current tranny just went into the ____ter today.. 3rd gear wont even engage.. i have to go rent a car.. lol

the only thing is i have to tell levelten what HP im looking for cuz they build the torque converter accordingly supposedly so idk what to tell them..

B_Real45

Tell them you want to it support at least 350wtq..

Or go higher if you want.. just know that the higher you go, the less smooth the tranny will shift.

SoFloTC

iTrader: (3)

ya they said if i tell them a mark and im making well under what i had said that it wud make problems.

purevision01

Meth injection is really not needed... actually half the parts you want are not needed to make the kinda power you are looking for... We built a tc that literally made 380 whp on 16 psi with a 60-1 turbo, springs and retainers, stock valves, stock pistons and stock rods, with 750cc injectors, and one walbro 255 low pressure... you definitely could make 330 on 15 psi and stock internals and a 60-1.

SoFloTC

iTrader: (3)

15 psi on stock internals isnt recommended though.

purevision01

the internals for our car are rated for about 400 hp... so whether that hp comes from boost or injection, they will fail at 400 hp... 15 psi is not recommended because alot of cars tuned to 15 psi experience excessive knock which causes the internals to fail... If tuned properly with a <5 knock count, you should be fine...

B_Real45

Do do that on stock internals, without lower the compression with a thicker headgasket, would require lots more fuel (much richer than 11.5:1 AFR) and lots of timing retard - which leads to EGT. Then boosting in the higher gears, 4th and 5th, will raise EGTs even higher.. which isn't a good thing.

Have you guys done extensive testing on 15+ psi, 350+whp without water/meth, purevision?

purevision01

What you are talking about is partially true... We have done plenty of builds using almost every type of injection... I'm not saying that using the injection isnt a good thing or a bad thing... But in my opinion based on previous builds we've done and the amount of power soflo is trying to make, the injection isnt necessary... If we made 380 on 16 psi on a motor with only valve springs (only done to accomidate shifting at 8000k), Im sure 310-330 on 15psi is realistically achievable without massive money dumped into the motor... Look how many people are making between 295 and 305 with only 9-10 psi... Depending on his tuner he may be able to achieve 330 on less boost...

We have not done much past 15psi, we do have one car that is tuned to 17psi on completely stock internals running basically a 57 trim turbo on 750cc RC injectors... Now this car is also on an EBC so he is able to run hi and low boost... The car is still running solid but again he is not running 17psi all day, his low boost is set to 10psi.

As for the excessive egt temps, I agree with you B Real, hi egts are not good for anything... But when tuning a car, we install a definable knock sensor on the car if the stock ecu doesnt display it. At that point instead of tuning only to air fuel ratios, you can tune to knock, which ultimately the main cause of most engine failures.

Theres a lot of info in this thread... perhaps a sticky is in order