InsideLine test S/C tC w/Video
01-26-2006, 02:04 AM
#222
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
^
Actually, i don't hate on the tC at all. I've said multiple times its a great car, maybe you overlooked that fact? I said it a lot in the beginning and in the middle of this thread. I respect the tC, i really do. What i don't respect, are those owners who believe the tC is so great and much better that what it is. See, some of you guys absolutely hate honda because of their owners. Not saying you are included in this, but its true. You guys put down civics, and the Si for all potential thats a given just because you see 16 year olds driving them like they are 10sec cars with a muffler and speed stickers.
Its kind of funny because a lot of the mods scion owners make fun of hondas for, for instance neon lights, i see an awful lot of those same owners that have neon lights on there car. Which i believe is a big part of the reason why some car forums hate the tC because of the owners.
Back to subject, as i have also said in the past both Si and tC have their strong points. The Si, hands down compared to the tC is a better performance car to start with than the tC. I have also said, that the tC is a great car if you are looking for a quick, comfortable fairly cheap compact to drive. While the Si is more along the lines of a rsx-s, and is a true sports compact where as the tC isn't. Its a compact yes, and yes it has potential however compared to the Si, it lacks in so much. I never start these tC vs. Si threads because to me its pointless. They are two cars in two seperate classes within the same compact world. But, people feel the need on here to hate honda and if they can't beat a honda, out comes excuses as to why.
Actually, i don't hate on the tC at all. I've said multiple times its a great car, maybe you overlooked that fact? I said it a lot in the beginning and in the middle of this thread. I respect the tC, i really do. What i don't respect, are those owners who believe the tC is so great and much better that what it is. See, some of you guys absolutely hate honda because of their owners. Not saying you are included in this, but its true. You guys put down civics, and the Si for all potential thats a given just because you see 16 year olds driving them like they are 10sec cars with a muffler and speed stickers.
Its kind of funny because a lot of the mods scion owners make fun of hondas for, for instance neon lights, i see an awful lot of those same owners that have neon lights on there car. Which i believe is a big part of the reason why some car forums hate the tC because of the owners.
Back to subject, as i have also said in the past both Si and tC have their strong points. The Si, hands down compared to the tC is a better performance car to start with than the tC. I have also said, that the tC is a great car if you are looking for a quick, comfortable fairly cheap compact to drive. While the Si is more along the lines of a rsx-s, and is a true sports compact where as the tC isn't. Its a compact yes, and yes it has potential however compared to the Si, it lacks in so much. I never start these tC vs. Si threads because to me its pointless. They are two cars in two seperate classes within the same compact world. But, people feel the need on here to hate honda and if they can't beat a honda, out comes excuses as to why.
I don't dislike Civics because of the owners that drive them(that's only 20%). The other percentage is from Styling, No TQ, To many people have them and we want to be different. In my case, I prefer higher TQ and decent gearing over low TQ and slightly better gearing. I will be honest and say we debated back and forth between two car choices. The RSX and the TC. After research, I determined that the tC was
1) Very stylesque
2) Better bang for the buck
3) Different
4) More room
Not to mention, we can make it do low to mid 12's with a Full interior with just a bolt-on turbo kit with the Engine from the FACTORY, and not have to do a motor swap.
So, the tC was chose and it's been full steam ahead ever since.
The same can be said for you though about making excuses when I say I walked all over this SI, or when I beat the B16a1 eqquiped Teggy w I/H/E. You start making excuses as to why they lost, and that I should have traded cars or that they were sucky drivers. So, you have to give credit and respect where it is due in order to recieve credit and respect. I must be a real man, as I don't make excuses if I lost. I just say better luck next time.
PS...I think I've seen mabye a total of probably 3 to 4 tC's with neon lights. I think that's more of an xB, xA mod.
01-26-2006, 01:36 PM
#224
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Originally Posted by cmndrjamesbond
killerx, I heard there is a hot Chevy Aveo vs xB thread out there. Better rally to it and defend your car's honor.
01-26-2006, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kungpaosamuraiii
So now we all agree that the Si is better from the factory.
Next up, we need to come to some agreement about the supercharged tC.
I just want to say that the Si will out handle a tC. After that, we I will say the table is evenly set because, remember, the supercharger doesn't make a tC handle better.
Next up, we need to come to some agreement about the supercharged tC.
I just want to say that the Si will out handle a tC. After that, we I will say the table is evenly set because, remember, the supercharger doesn't make a tC handle better.
N/a build up: Hands down Si.
From Factory: Hands down Si.
F/i build up: Anyones ball game between Si and tC, don't bring up the k20z3's high compression because we all know thats an easy fix with a swap of lower compression pistons. Also, don't bring up displacement. 2.0 k20a puts out 350whp with some set ups, i've seen much higher as well. Most i've seen (street legal, using the 2az and not a completely new motor) is around 450whp. I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
---------------------
Handling from factory: Hands down Si.
Modified: I'm going to say Si, but this is really a drivers debate on road course/autox. It really doesn't matter how properly tuned the set up is if the driver doesn't know how to properly handle the car. But it would be close with exact/similar set ups on each car. But i'm willing to say Si would win this.
--------------------
Best overall for the money: tC is better for the money if you aren't looking specifically at a performance compact. If you are looking for a performance compact, the Si is definitely the better choice. So its 50/50 really based on what the consumer wants. But to say either or wins this hands down is ignorant.
Most of this is exactly what i have been saying the entire time, but i believe what i stated above is fair to say. But i know someone is going to comment saying "your wrong" and give me some excuses as to why i'm wrong.
01-26-2006, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
Unlike some of you, i don't have to defend the xb in general out there. I don't feel the need to because i don't feel threatend by other cars out there in my class.
01-26-2006, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Scion-ce
Originally Posted by killerxromances
Unlike some of you, i don't have to defend the xb in general out there. I don't feel the need to because i don't feel threatend by other cars out there in my class.
01-26-2006, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
Clever, and you feel like you should put down the box why? Because you drive a tC? Okay.
01-26-2006, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Scion-ce
Originally Posted by killerxromances
Clever, and you feel like you should put down the box why? Because you drive a tC? Okay.
01-26-2006, 02:35 PM
#231
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
How about this for agreement..
N/a build up: Hands down Si.
N/a build up: Hands down Si.
From Factory: Hands down Si.
F/i build up: Anyones ball game between Si and tC, don't bring up the k20z3's high compression because we all know thats an easy fix with a swap of lower compression pistons. Also, don't bring up displacement. 2.0 k20a puts out 350whp with some set ups, i've seen much higher as well. Most i've seen (street legal, using the 2az and not a completely new motor) is around 450whp.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
(street legal, using the 2az and not a completely new motor) is around 450whp.
01-26-2006, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Originally Posted by killerxromances
How about this for agreement..
N/a build up: Hands down Si.
N/a build up: Hands down Si.
From Factory: Hands down Si.
F/i build up: Anyones ball game between Si and tC, don't bring up the k20z3's high compression because we all know thats an easy fix with a swap of lower compression pistons. Also, don't bring up displacement. 2.0 k20a puts out 350whp with some set ups, i've seen much higher as well. Most i've seen (street legal, using the 2az and not a completely new motor) is around 450whp.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
(street legal, using the 2az and not a completely new motor) is around 450whp.
Also i notice you talked about the 2az having low compression pistons available on the n/a quote. N/a high compression works best, lower compression works best for f/i. You quoted n/a for that comment, i'm assuming you were meaning to talk about f/i.
Also you talk about the 2az being new, well the k20z3 is just as new as the 2az when it comes down to it. However, its based on a few different platforms of honda and after doing research prior to the Si being released, the motor like other hondas is perfect for n/a set ups. And i do not doubt it will be just as compariable n/a as building a z1, k20a or k20a2..So on. Its a great designed motor with tons, and tons of potential.
Also, all you have to do is look on line on forums and other websites to see tons of 300whp+ honda motors built without swapping motors. Your arguement of not pooring lots of money into it really shouldn't play a role in what you are trying to prove. You have to dump a lot of money into the 2az for it to reach 300whp sort of speak. Just the turbo a lone (stage 1) is $5,000+ after install (assuming you don't have the tools and tuning knowledge to do it yourself)...You would then need to beef up some internals and some more work to make that reliable. I don't care what anyone has done, long term abuse with a larger turbo set up pushing that much whp on an original n/a motor without a proper prep-build is useless. No matter what motor we are talking about. To do a f/i set up properly, safely, reliable and worth while you don't just slap a turbo on and go. So i don't get why you are making money an issue when in the end, you are spending close to the same amount on a k20 f/i set up as you would a 2az f/i set up..(basing this on similar f/i set ups for both cars and so on.)
01-26-2006, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
When i talk f/i set ups, i'm talking about a built motor for the k20 and 2az. Anyone who runs high boost on a stock motor is a retard and is just waiting to blow a motor...Regardless of displacement.
Also i notice you talked about the 2az having low compression pistons available on the n/a quote. N/a high compression works best, lower compression works best for f/i. You quoted n/a for that comment, i'm assuming you were meaning to talk about f/i.
Also you talk about the 2az being new, well the k20z3 is just as new as the 2az when it comes down to it. However, its based on a few different platforms of honda and after doing research prior to the Si being released, the motor like other hondas is perfect for n/a set ups. And i do not doubt it will be just as compariable n/a as building a z1, k20a or k20a2..So on. Its a great designed motor with tons, and tons of potential.
Also, all you have to do is look on line on forums and other websites to see tons of 300whp+ honda motors built without swapping motors.
Originally Posted by 7thGenCivic.com
Now lets look at our D17 stock motor which is rated at 117hp on the EX model. So lets say you boost stock and you would roughly get around 150-170hp on 7-8 possibly 9psi of boost on your stock motor.
The most i have ever seen or read about that the D17 motors put out was 245hp on built internals.
The most i have ever seen or read about that the D17 motors put out was 245hp on built internals.
Also in terms of engine swap (swapping in a K20) this guy made a DIY and this was all of his cost.
Originally Posted by 7thGenCivic.com
Here is the pricing of the parts i paid for everything. All these parts were new from the dealer unless otherwise stated that i got it from the junkyard
k20 intermediate shaft.................$220
Axles from 02+ si.........................$100 from junkyard
RSX Subframe............................$600(quoted from acura) $150 from junkyard
Hasport Mounts............................................ .$400
Shifter Assembly.......................................... ...$100
Shifter Cables............................................ ....$300
02+ si radiator. i used the rsx radiator.................$150 (TYC brand)
fans.............................................. .................$30 universal fan from autozone
02+ si upper radiator hose..................................$13
02+ si lower radiator hose...................................$11
RSX Throttle cable............................................. $40
RSX Fuel Line.............................................. ......$45
RSX Brake booster line........................................$45
RSX Purge Line.............................................. .....$40
02+ si ac line from compressor to condensor............$100
RSX Clutch Line From slave to master.....................$20 from junkyard
RSX high pressure power steering hose...................$240
RSX Power steering return line...............................$50
92-95 Civic Power steering resevoir with bracket.......$50
Optional Stuff:
Hondata........................................... ................about $900
Hasport/Hybrid Racing Engine Harness....................about $300**
(complete new harness)
Just remember that this does not include the motor... i have seen complete motors that go for as low as $2000 for the SI to as much as $5000 or more for the JDM type R...
So now when you add everything that brings it up to roughly
$5900 or possibly lower to as much as $8900 or more
k20 intermediate shaft.................$220
Axles from 02+ si.........................$100 from junkyard
RSX Subframe............................$600(quoted from acura) $150 from junkyard
Hasport Mounts............................................ .$400
Shifter Assembly.......................................... ...$100
Shifter Cables............................................ ....$300
02+ si radiator. i used the rsx radiator.................$150 (TYC brand)
fans.............................................. .................$30 universal fan from autozone
02+ si upper radiator hose..................................$13
02+ si lower radiator hose...................................$11
RSX Throttle cable............................................. $40
RSX Fuel Line.............................................. ......$45
RSX Brake booster line........................................$45
RSX Purge Line.............................................. .....$40
02+ si ac line from compressor to condensor............$100
RSX Clutch Line From slave to master.....................$20 from junkyard
RSX high pressure power steering hose...................$240
RSX Power steering return line...............................$50
92-95 Civic Power steering resevoir with bracket.......$50
Optional Stuff:
Hondata........................................... ................about $900
Hasport/Hybrid Racing Engine Harness....................about $300**
(complete new harness)
Just remember that this does not include the motor... i have seen complete motors that go for as low as $2000 for the SI to as much as $5000 or more for the JDM type R...
So now when you add everything that brings it up to roughly
$5900 or possibly lower to as much as $8900 or more
Your arguement of not pooring lots of money into it really shouldn't play a role in what you are trying to prove.
You have to dump a lot of money into the 2az for it to reach 300whp sort of speak. Just the turbo a lone (stage 1) is $5,000+ after install (assuming you don't have the tools and tuning knowledge to do it yourself)...You would then need to beef up some internals and some more work to make that reliable.
I don't care what anyone has done, long term abuse with a larger turbo set up pushing that much whp on an original n/a motor without a proper prep-build is useless.
No matter what motor we are talking about. To do a f/i set up properly, safely, reliable and worth while you don't just slap a turbo on and go. So i don't get why you are making money an issue when in the end, you are spending close to the same amount on a k20 f/i set up as you would a 2az f/i set up..(basing this on similar f/i set ups for both cars and so on.)
01-26-2006, 03:36 PM
#234
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Originally Posted by 7thGenCivic.com
well.. its that time..yes that time of day... some of you may have read about me posting about my weird motor and stuff... To bring you up to speed on whats going on read this...
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthrea...95&page=1&pp=25
and read this too
http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=214864
Took me a while but i have figured how to do the wiring of all the electronis from the guage cluster to the fan switch to the O2 sensor.. So now everything works even Power steering and A/C and no check engine lights.
Now the swap is in my car and running full fledge kick ___... basically when i race my friends rsx with the same mods as me... i pull ahead of him by half a car or so...
my mods so far are
Hondata
Type S manifold and Base TB.. (took out the dual intake runners)
Megan Race headers
Megan Race Downpipe
Custom 2.5 Piping
Megan Race Exhaust
Custom 3in Intake
[b]Figured out what the motor was.. its from a type s k20a in japan.. so basically its a jdm k20a with less power then the k20a type r.. if you look in this months edition of import tuner the whole issue is literally covered with k20 stuff... this motor i have is rated at 160hp stock according to the specs in the book..
and if anyone needs any help on there swap while i make this DIY here ask me or you can wait till the next few days when i get the DIY made.
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we spent 8 hours tuning the thing.. you gotta remember that this motor has no base map for it on kpro considering we dont know which motor it is if you read the post from above.. so basically it was like this
we found the best map we could use and started from there..
1st run was at 99whp
then tuned more and got 140whp
then more and more and then finally before i went home we got it to 190whp and 120torque and it still has more tweaking to go..
then after much work here is the end result
Still needs more tuning.. right towards the end of the run like around 8000 the motor is not getting enough air.. so once i get the bigger TB in we go back to the dyno again.. right now i am using the base TB cause the TPS off my type S throttle body broke off.
Max HP - 201hp
Max TQ - 163tq
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthrea...95&page=1&pp=25
and read this too
http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=214864
Took me a while but i have figured how to do the wiring of all the electronis from the guage cluster to the fan switch to the O2 sensor.. So now everything works even Power steering and A/C and no check engine lights.
Now the swap is in my car and running full fledge kick ___... basically when i race my friends rsx with the same mods as me... i pull ahead of him by half a car or so...
my mods so far are
Hondata
Type S manifold and Base TB.. (took out the dual intake runners)
Megan Race headers
Megan Race Downpipe
Custom 2.5 Piping
Megan Race Exhaust
Custom 3in Intake
[b]Figured out what the motor was.. its from a type s k20a in japan.. so basically its a jdm k20a with less power then the k20a type r.. if you look in this months edition of import tuner the whole issue is literally covered with k20 stuff... this motor i have is rated at 160hp stock according to the specs in the book..
and if anyone needs any help on there swap while i make this DIY here ask me or you can wait till the next few days when i get the DIY made.
__________________
__________________
we spent 8 hours tuning the thing.. you gotta remember that this motor has no base map for it on kpro considering we dont know which motor it is if you read the post from above.. so basically it was like this
we found the best map we could use and started from there..
1st run was at 99whp
then tuned more and got 140whp
then more and more and then finally before i went home we got it to 190whp and 120torque and it still has more tweaking to go..
then after much work here is the end result
Still needs more tuning.. right towards the end of the run like around 8000 the motor is not getting enough air.. so once i get the bigger TB in we go back to the dyno again.. right now i am using the base TB cause the TPS off my type S throttle body broke off.
Max HP - 201hp
Max TQ - 163tq
Do you Seriously think this dude spent less than $3k (comparing to a Stage 0 equipped tC, which makes 240-260whp and 250-260wtq) just to swap out his engine?
01-26-2006, 03:43 PM
#235
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So, again, I stand by the the fact, that if your goal was 250whp it's going to take you more money, time, labor to reach it than taking 2-4hrs to bolt on a tC turbo kit.
Oh, on that bold part again, you failed to mention that the Honda motor would have to be running twice the amount of boost to get in that range. You fail to disclose the details when you made that statement.
290whp 330wtq on a 2az is reachable at 10.5psi (Dlytone's car results)
290whp 330wtq on a Honda motor would need to be around 20+psi give or take a few.
Originally Posted by killerxromances
F/i build up: Anyones ball game between Si and tC, don't bring up the k20z3's high compression because we all know thats an easy fix with a swap of lower compression pistons. Also, don't bring up displacement. 2.0 k20a puts out 350whp with some set ups, i've seen much higher as well. Most i've seen (street legal, using the 2az and not a completely new motor) is around 450whp.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
Oh, on that bold part again, you failed to mention that the Honda motor would have to be running twice the amount of boost to get in that range. You fail to disclose the details when you made that statement.
290whp 330wtq on a 2az is reachable at 10.5psi (Dlytone's car results)
290whp 330wtq on a Honda motor would need to be around 20+psi give or take a few.
01-26-2006, 04:01 PM
#236
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Killer just can not admit that the S/C tC is better (Straight line) than the Civic si.
He can not come to terms with facts and numbers. Wich do not lie.
He is basing his opinion on engines and vehicles that have been around for 1-2 decades. Then knocking the 2az that has been in the tuning world for about a year and a half.
He is not making any informed opinions in this debate. Letting his personal feeling sway logic.
He can not come to terms with facts and numbers. Wich do not lie.
He is basing his opinion on engines and vehicles that have been around for 1-2 decades. Then knocking the 2az that has been in the tuning world for about a year and a half.
He is not making any informed opinions in this debate. Letting his personal feeling sway logic.
01-26-2006, 04:44 PM
#238
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Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
So, again, I stand by the the fact, that if your goal was 250whp it's going to take you more money, time, labor to reach it than taking 2-4hrs to bolt on a tC turbo kit.
Oh, on that bold part again, you failed to mention that the Honda motor would have to be running twice the amount of boost to get in that range. You fail to disclose the details when you made that statement.
290whp 330wtq on a 2az is reachable at 10.5psi (Dlytone's car results)
290whp 330wtq on a Honda motor would need to be around 20+psi give or take a few.
Originally Posted by killerxromances
F/i build up: Anyones ball game between Si and tC, don't bring up the k20z3's high compression because we all know thats an easy fix with a swap of lower compression pistons. Also, don't bring up displacement. 2.0 k20a puts out 350whp with some set ups, i've seen much higher as well. Most i've seen (street legal, using the 2az and not a completely new motor) is around 450whp.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
I've seen honda motors in that range and beyond.
Oh, on that bold part again, you failed to mention that the Honda motor would have to be running twice the amount of boost to get in that range. You fail to disclose the details when you made that statement.
290whp 330wtq on a 2az is reachable at 10.5psi (Dlytone's car results)
290whp 330wtq on a Honda motor would need to be around 20+psi give or take a few.
01-26-2006, 04:50 PM
#239
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rhythmnsmoke; get your facts straight. The ZPI stage 0 does not dyno at 260whp, i've only seen one dyno but for it but it was at 230whp. I might also point out again, f/i on a n/a motor is useless without a prep-build. I don't care who just slaps it on and drives it, or what any company says you can do. (yes, i respect ZPI and others) Boosting a n/a motor requires certain mods to keep it lasting, point blank. Especially with almost a 100whp increase...Use common sense.
TimmyT- I can't take you seriously, especially when every post you say "wich" instead of "which" every time. Please use spell check if you can't catch a simple error like that. I can face the facts, and this is coming from someone who claims the k20z3 is basically a tsx?
TimmyT- I can't take you seriously, especially when every post you say "wich" instead of "which" every time. Please use spell check if you can't catch a simple error like that. I can face the facts, and this is coming from someone who claims the k20z3 is basically a tsx?
01-26-2006, 04:52 PM
#240
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Why everyone is talking about F/I is because the forum and topic of this ENTIRE thread is about the inside line evaluation of the s/c tC,you Brought up the "F/I setup is anyone's ball game" Comparison of the 2 cars, And the reason why we are even talking about the Civic SI in this thread is because of Speed magazines comparison of the Civic Si and the Supercharged tC. So the comparison makes it on topic.
Killer. You constantly assume the k20z3 is anything like the RSX-S engine and it is NOT.
You think just because the k20a1 etc has aftermarket parts the k20z3 will just share those parts.
Im not saying the z3 will not have aftermarket support, but you can not just grab an RSX aftermarket part and bolt it up to the k20z3. Because:
1. They are different engines.
2. They are different Cars. Wich means they have different dimensions. Wich means The parts just won't fit properly.
Killer. You constantly assume the k20z3 is anything like the RSX-S engine and it is NOT.
You think just because the k20a1 etc has aftermarket parts the k20z3 will just share those parts.
Im not saying the z3 will not have aftermarket support, but you can not just grab an RSX aftermarket part and bolt it up to the k20z3. Because:
1. They are different engines.
2. They are different Cars. Wich means they have different dimensions. Wich means The parts just won't fit properly.