senseiturtle

HP is the only figure necessary when determining acceleration. Torque numbers is somewhat worthless figure, as is there just to give you an idea of low end HP. Higher torque motors "get up and go" at lower RPM better due to a larger HP figure at that RPM.

Compare a F-series diesel truck and an F1 car. Weight issues aside, the 800hp/250 ft-lb racing motor will always destroy the 350hp/600 ft-lb truck.

A better comparison... Golf TDI vs. EP3 si. 90HP/180 ft-lbs vs. 160hp/130 ft-lbs. The 160hp motor will always win, even though its far behind in torque and near equal in weight.

There are several members on here who have made their mission to make it seem like the tC is the worst performing car in the scion lineup. It's bad enough the rest of the world dogs the tC, let alone other scion owners touting under 100 whp.

ack154

iTrader: (7)

So... all "tC vs Si" crap aside... I just sent an email to Edmunds pretty much asking what kind of crack they're smoking to get $26k.

Here's what I sent:

Phixeus

no i get the numbers, but an equal balance is what i thought the goal was. any way i was getting at the rediculas gap between the 2 on performance Honda motors.

back to the tC. as with any car the factory set us is for longevity and reliability. the tC was not designed for the pourpose for which most of us are going to use it. however we where givin a great platform. the motor is good and responds very well to boost, however as you will find with all cars that were designed to be N/A at high psi they all have problems. this is why people get new blocks, heads, pistons, rods, cranks, and cams. out of the box the tC might be slower but if i invest the difference in price into my tC i would be able to kill any car in the $20 to $25K range.

i paid $16,800 for mine and if i had $ 4 to $9 K into the car, ohh just imagine. your biggest problem then is competing with AWD cars for the hole shot. the Scion line was partialy developed for economy. low pice, low mx, and low fuel consumption. but i dont think i could have found a better NEW car for $16,800. granted i could have gotten a used SRT 4 or something, but really who wants to drive a Neon. i mean Mopar or No Car but not that car! hell i would have gotten a Cobalt SS but it was almost $10,000 more. and my buddy has one and eats gas.

as for the Civic being around longer that the tC, over the life span of that car, not one model has been the same as the last. every model and nearly every motor has been different in some way. so it shows to me that Honda did not get it right the first time. the reason that the new Si has the 200 hp motor in it this year is b/c Honda found out that every one was dropin the Teggy motor in the last edition. so who is Honda really cometing with, Scion or Acura?

it still looks like crap. but it is improving.

killerxromances

I love how people act on here. You don't like what someone says, oh, he drives an xb, so lets through the clever comment "you drive a car with a 1.5l 1nz. like you know what potential is." Wow, great call catching the obvious that i drive a box. And yes, xb will never be a drag queen but kind of think of it, i don't drag. Neither did i drag much when i built the gs-r, even though i ran low 13's n/a. (i could have done more to it, but i was pretty happy with that)

I don't have a problem with the tC, and i've stated that i don't know how many times. It's funny how just because i believe the Si is a better performance compact than the tC with a better platform for performance/potential, i'm automatically hating on the tC and think its worthless. It's amusing, and thats probably why other car forums make fun of the tC. Not because its a bad car, but because some of the owners think they drive some amazing compact that could easily smoke anything. It gives the rest of tC owners a bad name. Some of the tC guys i'm friends with, would more than likely agree with me.

datrickster24

pfffft, i still think SC tc > civic si

-Dan

Phixeus

wow, thats not what i was getting at at all. but good points however. i got the tC b/c it was cheap and different. all platforms have potintial. i was getting at is that most civic owners have gone for the high hp number and therefor sacrificed better performance else where. i think the Si is a nice car but i also think that Honda is over shooting the mark. it is aiming very high. all in all i would still pick the tC but i would not bag on someone for having a Civic or any other sport compact, well except maybe Mazdas b/c i hate thoes cars. bad experiance.

killerxromances

^ Well look at that, someone else agrees and/or sees my points made eariler.

tC is a nice car but:
-Built to be a cheap, reliable quick car that has standard features that most don't for that price range. (especially)
-Built on fuel economy, not performance

Tq alone doesn't win races, nor does hp. I've already said this once and if anyone tries to argue with that, well, that shows how much knowledge you really have.

Both are nice cars, tC is not a performance compact though. Face the facts, that does not mean it can't produce good numbers nor does that mean the tC can't be built overall to perform well, but like i said before....Si is made to perform, it was designed to perform. K20z1 like it or not guys, is a better platform to start with than the 2az. 2az came out of a camry, okay. Realize that. Economy motor.

I will say it once i will say it again, if Toyota really wanted to strive performance on the tC they wouldn't have dropped the 2az in there. They would have went for something like the 2zz from the gt-s. That would be a much better platform to start with than the 2az. Much more aftermarket too.

atodak

I know there are turbo'd gts' out there but I've heard from a few companies that the 2zz already has high compression and does not respond well reliability wise to boost......

killerxromances

Its a good motor for n/a build ups, and if you want to run safe on boost swap pistons.

rhythmnsmoke

^^haahaaa....dude you seriously crack me up. The more I read your post, the more I think you have no idea what you are talking about.

I love how people put on this visad that Oh...they must have just took all the camry motors and just straight dropped them into the tC. Call up ZPI and ask Kenny exactly how similar the Camry motor is to that of the tC...I think you are in for a surprise.

HP is for bragging rights, TQ wins races...Now how is that so. The 1/4 mile is not that long. So, if I have really good low end TQ, vs a car with the TQ power of a lawnmower but high HP. When we launch off the line, I'm going to automatically jump on him. By the time he starts to catch up (due to having high HP numbers), I would have already crossed the 1/4 mile marker.

You say the SI was built for performance, and the tC was built for fuel economy, not performance. Damn if we keep up with the new 06 SI now, and smoke all previous SI's, then man what would the SI do if Toyota decides to build it for more performance than "fuel economy" as you stated.

Here let me be a little more blunt...You would have to pay me to trade in the tC for any Civic including an SI. The new styling blows big ones. Looks like someone took a pancake iron to an Accord.

We can theorize all we want to.....Oh the SI should win this, and the tC should win that. Theories here and there. The ONLY fact that I know of is, that I have smoked SI's. If you want a performance 4cyl, go get a Teggy, then we can talk. But don't show up with an SI unless it's the 06 model. Otherwise it will be like an ALi vs. George Forman fight. Quick 1, 2 and you are in my rearview!


PS...Lol..I love internet arguments. People take things so seriously. And everybody is an EXPERT!

schwettynuts

plus.. I dont think tC's fuel economy is that great.. maybe its just the way I drive? And yes, arguing on the internet is retarded.

Here is my take, if someone would give me a straight trade for my rs1 with 06 Si, sure I will take it. But if i had to spend my money between the 2, i would take the tC. Just better for $$. Yes Si is nice but the price and the body style makes me look the other way.

killerxromances

The more i read your post, is like wise how you feel about me. First of all, a tC (stock) can not beat a 06' Si, so i don't know how you are figuring you can keep up with it. Stock for stock, the 06' will smoke any tC. Second of all, both 2az's (camry and tC) are very similar, infact the differences between the two motors is about the same as the differences between the k20z1 and k20z3. Theres not a whole lot of difference, sure, there are some i agree, but not enough to make it sound like they are two completely different motors man.

You say you want performance go get a teggie, i already did. And you already know this, and incase you forgot i am the one that built a 231whp @ 7,100rpm (8,600rpm redline) gs-r that ran 1/4 in low 13's with custom made gears. (very close ratio 5spd) So, don't talk to me about if you want performance get an integra.

Now, as far as tC and Si goes. Yes, you are correct you will jump out in front off the line. I'm not denying that at all, you are absolutely correct. Pretty obvious, we all know honda motors are built for top end (90% of motors they make at any rate) and the 2az is more of a low-mid range motor. However, that doesn't mean you win in the end. Being this is about an 06' Si, the Si will catch up pretty fast, i'd say 2nd gear Si would be right beside a tC, end of 2nd Si will be ahead, and it would be over after that.

As for your other comments, fine, you don't like the styling of the Si or other civics. Thats opinion, and i respect that so long as you can respect someone else with other opinions. Which, so far on this thread you really haven't shown me that much respect. Looks doesn't judge how well a car performs, so that comment is pretty useless on the performance department.

Facts are facts, you are pretty bais with the tC as most of you guys. I have given both cars credit numerous times, some of you have yet to do so. (which i might add, fair credit and credit worthy.)

I'll post the credits again incase this is brought up:

06' Si:
-Built strongly on performance
-Solid, and great platform to build and start from. No matter how big or small you are wanting to go with it.
-Great fuel economy given what it is.
-Personal opinion, looks great.
-Great price ($19,990 don't bring up mid 20's crap, because thats not actual pricing. Only a few brave dealership will's.)
-Pretty good standard features
-Great motor

tC:
-Built to be quick, comfortable, reliable and affordable
-Fair platform to build from, potential is there but not like Si (especially whp per liter)
-Great standard features
-Personal opinion, looks pretty good
-Great gas milage given what it is
-Okay motor, oversized, underpowered. Not the best motor to start from but as stated above, there is potential there...just not as easy as k20.


So as you see, both have great things about them. But don't think the 2az is some great 4cyl with endless potential. Some of you guys thing its the best n/a 4cyl ever, or at least thats how it sounds. Its a good motor, but like i've said above.

hahaitzskippy

SI > TC
in performance...

ask me which one looks better
TC > SI any day. many to almost all car review mags said teh same.

and ask if i would trade my TC for an SI

the answer is NO

stop this pointless argueing. NA vs NA. the FG coupe SI will win. dont believe me? why dont u race against one and back it up. if you beat the SI. switch cars and race again. see who wins.

and those TC biased people...
why arent tehre TC's in amatuer or professional races!?!?

i believe an SI won an event recently...

now if you wanna put on a turbo kit or SC... im not gonna say anythign about that, no personal experience and i dont tink there is sufficient data...

how bout we keep this down on earth

facts are facts and opinions will remain your opinions

so lets stop the arguing

rhythmnsmoke

For the record Killerxromances...I didn't say the tC would BEAT and 06 SI. I said it would keep up with it. Now, if it isn't an 06, then it's getting walked no matter how many times you race.

By the way, I think this was the vid someone was looking for in a couple of post back (possibly one of those other tc vs. SI threads).

This is pretty much the view the SI gets when I ever race one.

Click here to see Video

killerxromances

Thank you! Finally someone that can state an opinion and actual facts, without trying to shut me or anyone else down.

As for f/i, k20z1 really doesn't have too many f/i set ups out. k20z3 has a few, k20a has a ton, k20a2 has a ton, and most other honda motors do. k20z1 has more n/a products for aftermarket vs. f/i... However, from my experience with honda's i would say that the k20z1 with a overall build up for boost, would out do the 2az. I can't say for sure, but i believe it would.

Reason why i say this is because the k20a can produce 350whp+ on boost safely with a build up to hold boost, psi levels are only 1-3psi difference between this example of 350whpish compared to zpi stage 1 for the 295-300whp tC.

Honda motors respond extremely well to mods, reason being is they are made more so for performance compared to toyota's in the same class. Example would be Si and tC.

killerxromances

Then do what hahaitzskippy said and trade, i am willing to bet money you would win again driving the Si.

You can show me videos if you want, which is fine thats cool. Always fun to watch. However, i know for a fact tC is almost equal to the previous Si.

Lets see, i can take your word for it or someone who has been doing this kind of stuff for years...and raced someone with a few years of experience as well. No offense to your stories, but they are 95% equal with performance. (previous Si and tC) Like it or not, it really doesn't matter. Like i mentioned, do what haha said and swap, then lets hear you talk.

rhythmnsmoke

It's funny how someone disproves a theory, then the person who is so set on it want's to change the parameters. Oh, well lets see it on a track...well, change the tires on the SI....well, how about a short shifter in the SI....Excuses, Excuses, Excuses. That's the problem with arguing over the internet. Someone ALWAYS has an excuse or wants to change the terms of the race. Give me a break bro. Be a MAN. You win some, you loose some. I have yet to loose to an SI. ANYONE GOT A STOCK SI to go up against my STOCK tC? Be glad to make an example out of you.


How much whp you think you will get out of a k20a if boosted to 14psi? 14psi will net you around 400whp if not more on the 2az(hate using their name here, but ScionSpeed netted 426whp on 17-18psi.) Civic motors would have to be somewhere in the 25-30psi range to get that much whp.

You can not make the same whp on a 1.6 - 1.8L engine running at the same psi level as a 2.4L engine. The 2.4L will see higher #'s on the dyno purely from having a larger displacement (you cant change physics). Not to mention, 295-350whp has been seen on UN-BUILT 2az's.

Although not highly recommended, we don't need to BUILD the motor to see 295-300+ whp.

PS...you keep talking about the same two guys that you saw race. And your basis is off of 4 total races, with two guys driving. I don't think that qualifiies them as spokes people for the potential or estimated outcome of a race between a tC and 99-04 SI. If I had to chose, I would put my money on the tC everytime.

Your stories are no more valid than my stories. But I kinda ONE-UP'd you with the vid though...

PS...I wouldn't trust the SI driver to piolt the tC against me. Couldn't say his judgement would be all that good. He did choose a Civic for crying out loud.... I'm just jerkin your chain bro. I wouldn't want to drive the SI, I would have to keep it at 7k rpm to feel like I'm getting somewhere. Whereas in the tC, I'm Movin at 3k rpm.

kungpaosamuraiii

Well the new parameters are that you should switch cars. If you ever get a chance to, please do.

rhythmnsmoke, I just have one thing to add at this moment in defense of the torqueless engines that Honda makes.

There are number B18s running 10's and less in the 1/4. Also, a lot of them are daily drivers. When the tC can do that I'll be impressed but I have my doubts of daily drivability at that point.

killerxromances

Excuses? Dude, i said switch drivers not switch parts. You are the one, as well as others, that tend to find reasons as to why the s/c tC tied with an 06' Si on that magizine coverage. Not me, so don't even bring up excuses on my part.

Displacement doesn't prove that per psi gains will be more on a 2az vs. k20. All displacement proves, as generally speaking you can get more power overall vs. a smaller displacement motor. However, 1.8l's running 9's 1/4 kind of disproves the no replacement for displacement deal.

Scionspeed may have netted 400whp+, but scionspeed has also had quite a few complaints with ruined motors. Their also the last company you would want to buy a turbo kit from. 400whp on a 2az, not build up at all wont last much longer than weeks, maybe a month or so.

Also, 14psi does not give the 2az 400whp, it will be in the 300's. K20a with 14psi will probably give you in the range of 310-340whp. On the 2az, it would give you around 370whp. Sure, there is a difference but that doesn't prove anything. Neither motor would last that long without building up the internals and a few other things. So that doesn't really prove anything. All that proves is both motors would be in the 300's and both wouldn't last very long.

Yes, the races with my friend doesn't account for all si tc races nor does that make them spokes people. However, just because you have raced doesn't make you either. Guess what, no one is an "offical" spokes person. However, the people that raced in the tc/si were professionals at what they do. You, from what i know, are not. And from what i saw in the video, Si driver obviously isn't.

rhythmnsmoke

^^You have to keep in mind that those same 10sec B18's are in a car that weighs no where near as much as the tC does. Therefore, a Civic with a swapped boosted motor doesn't have to put down a lot of whp to see it dip into the 13's, 12's, 11's.

So, the trade off is, they are lighter with less power. We have to be heavier with a lot more power. See where I'm coming from? Kenny@ZPI has dipped into the 12.4 sec 1/4 range, without an LSD, without gear ratio changes, without Built motor. And that was with a full interior. They want to make it into the 11's. I think if he where to gutt it, they would see 11's. And the Qualife LSD (expected to be released later this year), who knows what #'s they will see in the 1/4.