rhythmnsmoke

Changing drivers is a parameter/codition/term of the race. Changes after the outcome does not go in your favor is....Say it With Me....An Excuse.

Just a little fact for you,

reported 06 SI 1/4 run = 15.1

best reported S/C tC 1/4 run = 14.8

Since when does 14.8 can't keep up with 15.1?

You say this....

Then you turn around and contradict yourself by saying the following...

[quote]Also, 14psi does not give the 2az 400whp, it will be in the 300's. K20a with 14psi will probably give you in the range of 310-340whp. On the 2az, it would give you around 370whp. Sure, there is a difference but that doesn't prove anything. Neither motor would last that long without building up the internals and a few other things. So that doesn't really prove anything. All that proves is both motors would be in the 300's and both wouldn't last very long.

No one was talking about them as a company. Stop reading into it so much. I'm a ZPI customer bro.

So, if I'm not a professional, and the SI driver I'm going against is not a professional...Wouldn't that make it a fair race? To Which I Whooped That A$$

killerxromances

Yes, i am fully aware of power to weight and what it can do for you. But thats not the point, in order to reach 9sec 1/4 times you have to have a power, regardless unless you weigh 1,000lbs. Which then it becomes traction problems.

Kenny's tC doesn't just have a turbo slapped on either, he (if i'm not mistaken) has the most built 2az on here thats daily. hes also pushing more whp than 290-300whp last time i checked. I could be wrong, and if i am i will admit it but thats what i understand.

But you also have Si's, and other fairly similar weight hondas compared to the tC running 13's on n/a. I have yet to see a n/a tC break 14's regularly. Boosting is the easy way out. What i want to see is fully built n/a 2az's running 13's. Because until i see it, i seriously doubt its going to happen. I mean, with my old tegra for example. I was running constant low 13's with custom gearing, yes. But i had 231whp, i've seen 230whpish tC's only run high 14's, custom gearing won't shave that much time off.

Which brings me back to the point, the tC is not a performance car. If the Toyota wanted it to be an affordable performance compact, they could have done it. But guess what, they didn't. If they really wanted to focus more on performance, the tC wouldn't have a almost complete glass roof that weighs a ton. It wouldn't have the 2az, and there would be other differences and they could have done different standard features to still set it apart from others in its class. But they didn't. Its quick, it does have potential, yes. But how reliable will the tC be running high boost? Time will tell, theres already signs.

Also, no two non-professionals don't make it fair. The guy is not good at driving, apparently. And you are better at driving, which is obvious from the video.

killerxromances

[quote]Quote:
Displacement doesn't prove that per psi gains will be more on a 2az vs. k20. All displacement proves, as generally speaking you can get more power overall vs. a smaller displacement motor. However, 1.8l's running 9's 1/4 kind of disproves the no replacement for displacement deal.


You say this....

Then you turn around and contradict yourself by saying the following...

And notice i said both around, i was giving those numbers as examples i could see producing. However, it could very well be the k20 higher, or both motors even. But you figure 340whp to 370whp, theres really not a big difference. A lot depends on the actual set up and other things that go into it, its hard to just say 10psi delivers ___ on ____ motor.

But i don't see how i contradicted myself, i said generally speaking. Which, displacement doesn't prove overall gains of specific mods. However, i do know the k20a turbo'd at 15.5-16psi puts it right at 350whp. I don't know specifics either. The ZPI stage 1 turbo is, 12psi? Some where around there sounds about right, which puts the 2az around 290-300whp. Just say 12psi and 300whp, you asked for 14psi..Two more psi would probably put the 2az around 320-330whp. Okay, lets say 330whp. The k20 take away around two psi from 350 would put it around 320-330whp. They are equal given the ZPI stage 1 is around 12psi, i forget actual levels.

But as i stated before, this proves nothing because without a built motor, at very least tranny work, some internal's and bottom end these motors, both of them, would give out very quickly. Which i might add, boosting a stock n/a motor is retarded.

kungpaosamuraiii

I'm sorry, the argument is REALLY convoluted now.

I was going to say something but.. it wouldn't've made sense in context. What was the point, originally?

killerxromances

My point never changed. K20 is a better platform to start with than the 2az as far as potential and performance goes. Overall, Si is a better performance car than the tC...But, most people posting tend to believe the tC can beat Si's all day long...After that, it gets complex.

rhythmnsmoke

ZPI Stage 1 is 10-10.5 psi. There are a couple of tC's running 10psi and have been for some time, on UN-Built motors.

Kenny is on 11psi by the way. I should know, I go up there about every 3 weeks.

30whp is not that big of a difference, you said it first.

06 SI = 197hp

05 tC = 160hp

197-160 = 37hp

I just love doing that to people....lol.

Do you even know why people build up their motors? ONE answer is so they can boost without to many problems. But what other explanations can you give?


By the way, that's not my vid, nor is that me in the vid. I found that on streetfire.net.
Also, I take it by your statement that this is a DRIVERS race. So, why do you find it so hard to believe that we walked an SI?

killerxromances

Yes, i did say it first. 30whp is not a big difference..However, what you are not taking into consideration is the fact that 30whp is a big difference when you talking about 130-140whp and 170-180whp. However, the more power you are putting down the less 30whp matters. For instance, 1,000whp and 1,030whp..Yeah, you really aren't going to notice that 30whp of a difference.

Not to mention, the Si will be able to take better use of the whp vs. the 2az. 2az has extreme wheel hop and other traction issues once you reach 250whp+. The Si wouldn't, not to mention you are putting that power into a car thats made to perform. tC isn't. If i had to place a bet, on which car would last longer. 300whp tC or 300whp Si, with identical set ups, my money is going on the Si.

rhythmnsmoke

Although close race, another example that TQ wins races.

RalliArt with just an Exhaust

VS

SI with Intake, Header, and Exhaust

Click here to see Video

rhythmnsmoke

I have yet to see a Dyno chart to verify the SI puts down 170-180whp. Until there is factual proof, we can only theorize and speculate.

And don't forget, the tC puts down MORE TQ to the WHEELS, than the SI has rated at the CRANK. So, where you say it's a bigger difference in low HP#'s, the tC makes up for it in TQ to the GROUND.

And I have said YES, stock vs stock, the 2006 Civic SI will beat the 2005 Scion tC in a race down the 1/4 mile. But it's going to be probably by a car lenght, which isn't enough for me to trade in a tC for an SI. Which Has Been The ONE Thing I Have Been Trying To Say From The Start Of This Whole Argument!

davedavetC

iTrader: (4)

hahah this thread title should be changed to either SI vs TC again, or rhythmnsmoke vs Killerxromances lol just my 2 cents lol between the 2 of you you know who my money is on hahah (seen as how that person already got some of my money )

rhythmnsmoke

^^Haaahaaa...you crack me up. I'm was working on a grill today. Got it all finished up, now I just need to get it shipped.

killerxromances

I knew he was buying people to agree with him. lol, jk rhythmn.

It should be called rhythmnsmoke vs killerxromances, i mean for the past 3 pages its mostly been me and him. Although we disagree, i do respect him in the end. Hopefully he shares the same respect back, in the end its just cars and as long as we can respect each other and each others opinions its all in fun game.

davedavetC

iTrader: (4)

hehe its good to see i coulp help you out by getting your name out, but may i suggest one thing, you should go back and edit each one of you post before so that while each person is getting into this little arguement will see subliminally, *want a custom grill for your tC pm me* hahah it may work

killerxromances

Well, 170-180whp is very accurate given its fwd and everything. I would be extremely, extremely surprised if it was less than 170whp.

As i've said before, tq alone does not win races..Anyone that knows anything about motors, drivetrains and racing knows this. Its a combination of things that overall allows a motor to out perform others. HP and TQ must work together in order to make a difference, not just one and not just the other. Not to mention, gearing also can effect things, lsd or not lsd, drivetrains, probably about another 20 little things to add on top of that.

Also, above you mentioned how the Si runs 15.1 and the s/c tC has ran as low as 14.8. While you are correct, few people do reach (very few) 14's with just a s/c, but with the same driver the Si can run 14.9-15.0 stock. With that said, a tC with s/c is almost identical to 1/4 times with a stock Si. Not your "s/c tC will smoke the living crap out of a stock Si" theories. You should know driver plays everything in racing, no matter if its 1/4, rally, road courses or whatever. I bet you someone than can take a s/c tC and run 14.9, you put them in a Si and the Si will be able to pull 14.9-15.0.

Even if we went with your theory of best time a Si could do is 15.1 stock (which is incorrect), and the best time a s/c tC (again, just s/c) of 14.8. Thats .3seconds faster, thats hardly "smoking" a stock Si. Not to mention, the tC has to be boosted inorder to even do that where as a stock Si does it..well, stock. You run the same psi on the Si that the tC is running, with a pretty much identical set up as far as f/i goes, the Si will win easily. But i know i know, "in order to be fair the tC needs the s/c to race a stock Si 1/4."

davedavetC

iTrader: (4)

^^^ i knew the peace wouldnt last long,

NOW BACK TO YOUR SCHEDULED PROGRAM LADIES AND GENTLEMEN








actually i didnt even read it sorry killer, haha i just saw you quoting him and then you speak


THERE EDITED JUST FOR YOU KILLER

killerxromances

You might want to edit that post and instead of not, say now, and instead of sceduled, put scheduled.

And whats peace? jk

Phixeus

oh sweet poetic justice. there is a guy who live around the corner from me that i caught comming home today that happens to have, you guessed it, an 06 Si. with the route we take home i have 2 things for you, from a roll on the high way, they are dead even match, but from a red light, i took him got 1 and 1/2 lengths and stayed there. so how is that, oh and the other guy has lots of racing exper. he just dropped an 02 S2000 to get it. he ran that car at the track every weekend in the high 11's low 12's. my tC bone stock with TWM SS. but that car is loud and rev happy. what does that thing red at? it sure does sound a lot like the new teggy.

davedavetC

iTrader: (4)

lol!! thanks spell check ill get on that hahhaa

rhythmnsmoke

^^Man, of course I do. You can only take what people say with a grain of salt. ESPECIALLY on the Internet.

I do have a question for you though...where is this Teggy that you built? Is it just your weekend warrior and you drive the xB as a daily driver? Do you have any pics or vid of the Teggy?

killerxromances

1. I call bs on the redlight thing, bone stock tC runs very high high 15's to low 16's, stock Si runs very low 15's to 14.9ish with a very good driver. From a roll on the highway, that doesn't matter at all. Starting out at that speeds, most cars will run evenly matched.

And the Si redlines at 8,000rpm.