aslugger3b

i work at honda and drive the si. to be honest with u its not fast at all. i test drove it with a mechanic and it wasnt as fast as it should be. the rsx is 10 times faster than the si. handling is way better but over not very impressed especially with the price too. i spoke with a gentleamn who bought one and after taxes and everything he spend almost 30k with the navi. the seats look like the seat that my friend has in is hatchback si. its looks cheap. the dash navi and handling are the only 3 things that impress me . after wanting one i rather stick with my tc and make more power with the 2.4L then the 2.0L honda si

rhythmnsmoke

The argument is not the S/C tC would KILL an SI. The argument was that they were equal, if not the tC would edge out a slight victory.

And you mentioned
My rebutal to that is the SI has to cost 4k dollars more to out do a stock tC.

rhythmnsmoke

VTAAAAKKK BABY VTAAAAKKKK!!!

Click here to see Video


PS...not my vid, and not me driving either.

Question, at what point does it become fair. Or do we have to automatically ASSUME that every tC driver that walks an SI must be better at driving?

ryno379

I know what you mean. Last summer I beat a mid 90's Civic EX that was turbocharged (very close, but I still won). After the race he was like "wellI just got the car and I'm not used to it". This was when my tC was still stock.

kungpaosamuraiii

Fair is when drivers switch cars to determine whether the cars or the drivers won.

If you win one and lose one it's the cars. If you win both it's the driver.

rhythmnsmoke

^^heehee...there is an excuse for everything.

rhythmnsmoke

Yeah, I'm sure that I'm going to trust every total STRANGER out there to drive the tC while I drive his car. YEAH, I'm sure to have a good time explaining to the insurance company as to why some dude that I don't know had the keys to my car and wrecked it. OR BETTER YET, stole our tC, because he got tired of driving his slow SI.


VTAAAAAKKKK OW3N's YOU.


Seriously dude, That is the most unheard of logic I have ever read. No one goes around playing Musical Cars to find out who will beat who. You Race What You Bring end of story!

Seeing as how we can't get you to be a man about it, and except the fact that stock vs stock the tC is faster than all previous SI's, I guess we are only to believe that everyone that walks an SI must be the better driver, and infact it's not the cars at all.

Well, I thank you for the compliment that I'm a better driver than ALL SI drivers driving previous SI's.

rhythmnsmoke

By the way Killerxromances...You said that if they wanted to have performance out of the tC, then they should have went with the Celica motor right?

How many boosted Celicas are out there. History shows, that the motor doesn't respond well to boost. You would have to upgrade a lot more internals to get the Celica motor to handle as much boost as we have seen plenty of tC's handle on this very message board.

If equipped with a Celica motor, aftermarket support for the tC would be 10times slower. And there would be no where near as many Boosted tC's as we have now.

senseiturtle

https://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=100998

me vs. a well-driven ep3 Si.
video

tC - Intake, header
Si - Intake, exhaust



Cliffs - he gets the win light, I run better E.T. and MPH.

The previous generation Si and the tC are dead even. They were even when we were both stock, and they're still equal now with very few mods.

Timeslip is also posted on that thread. You'll see how even the drivers are, too.

atodak

sounds familiar

killerxromances

You keep bringing up boost, f/i set ups is not the only way to build a motor. For n/a support, the 2zz would respond much better than the 2az. And again, 2az hasn't been being boosted long enough to judge. For all we know, another year down the road and 20 boosted tCs had to replace or rebuild their motors due to high boost.

And 2zz doesn't go well with boost with stock compression mostly, swap the pistons and do a few other things it can handle over a long period of time around 8-9psi. Build it up more and it can handle more.

But like i said, boost isn't everything. Plus, i was giving the 2zz platform as an example, the point was if toyota wanted to push performance the 2az would not have been the motor they would have put in there.

And read what senseiturtle said, someone else who raced a previous Si that also says they are equal.

tC is not faster than all previous Si's, . You have my example, and you have senseiturtle example that just so happens to be on the boards. There are tons of other examples of this. Just because you race an Si and smoke him because he apparently can't drive no where near as good as you, doesn't mean you can flat out say Si is slow as crap and tC wins. Because it doesn't.

kungpaosamuraiii

Heh, fair's fair. You can't say that ISN'T fair but I'm not going to say it's smart ;)


(Btw, you've been making a consistent error with the word "except." You're using it as the word "accept." I normally wouldn't care but you've done it a few times.)

Ahem. Anyways, I think I've been agreeing with you that the tC is at least as fast as previous Si's. Don't you agree that it just goes to show how good of a car the tC is stock? I mean think about it, the fuel economy based tC (can't say an FE head is otherwise, ductile iron sleeving and factory forged rods or not) can beat race engines that aren't even a decade old.

Your welcome about the compliment and congrats on the kills! It's nice seeing tCs doing some pounding. It's nice to hear about too rather than the perpetual comparisons between the 06 Si and the tC. Blah. And for the record, I firmly stand by that previous Si's are about equal if not a small bit better or worse despite the VTAK that the tC lacks an equivalent to (lift.) I also stand by that a stock 06 Si will walk all over a tC in any race save acceleration race in which it'll slightly nip ahead when the FE starts choking out. And finally, it's my opinion that the 2AZ can go further on less money than the K20z.

rhythmnsmoke, you've told others to read your posts before saying something that was already covered; I think I've already said most of this already..

anywho..


killerxromances, the 2AZ can go far if a few things are swapped out. 400 hp appears to be a safe point to decide to get some new sleeves but other than that, if a GE head appears for the 2AZ in the 8th gen JDM Celica, we'll have a true performer. With a GE head and some suspension parts, the tC will be more than a match for an Si. All else equal, there's no replacement for displacement. All other parts won't be equal, of course, but.... dammit, they'd better come out with that Celica. Hm, I may just import one..

killerxromances

I do agree with you, with the GE head it would help the 2az out so much as far as gains per mod. The 2az does have potential, and i know it does. Maybe i'll word my point a little differently to see if people understand what i'm saying a little better..

2az compared to the k20.. My arguement is, given my hands on experience the K20 does respond better with mods than the 2az does. Its platform is better, and safer when we talk bolt ons for stock...Including bolt on f/i set ups. I'm not saying the 2az can't handle its own, but what i am saying in order for the 2az to respond to modding more so like the k20 it needs some work. For example, the GE head you speak of..Which i might add would help an incredible amount as far as being able to mod, and keep it streetable.

Both cars have its highs and lows, just like any other car. However, performance isn't a high point with the tC, while it is quick and you can make it fast like any other car, it overall is not the best platform overall to start with. Especially with the motor, to say Toyota made the tC to be a performance compact imo is totally wrong. Because thats not what they were going for and it shows.

400hp imo is not a safe point for the 2az before you need to build to handle the boost. 400hp the 2az would be time bomb just waiting to go off without a major bottom end/internal build up to withstand psi levels and hp gains.

kungpaosamuraiii

Oh of course. I was just talking about the sleeves and the rods. I don't think they'll deform before 400 hp.

And I still think that the 2AZ responds to boost better. The 2AZ just doesn't like bolt-on affairs like i/h/e. Header perhaps, but only because there is a cat on the stock header.

For instance, even with the advantage that would be equivalent to the GE head, the RSX-S does about the same hp number with a 7 psi Rev Hard kit. I can't compare for certain since the Turbonetics was dynoed with a Dynapak and the Rev Hard, a Dynojet, but the hp numbers were 10 off of each other, advantage to the K20. What is a little more fun to look at from the standpoint of a tC guy, is the torque output on the Turbonetics turbo kit making 262 ft-lbs versus the 200 ft-lbs that the Rev Hard kit makes. One more psi would most certainly, for one, equalize the two psi (so they're both at 8 psi) and give the final dyno advantage to the RSX-S but that is disregarding the 10% or so lower number on the Dynapak.

To say that performance is not the tC's high point and that the tC is not made to be a high performance coupe is entirely true.

But it's somewhat wrong to say that the tC is a poor platform to start off with. Although I always point at the FE head, the bottom end on the tC does show concern for power. With ductile iron sleeving and factory forged rods, the tC is a head and piston swap away from a very good performance platform (in terms of power only.)

That said, I'm going to restate a position of mine that I haven't stated in this thread.

I think that the tC is made through and through for moderately high performance levels. By this I mean around 300-350 hp easy. Higher than that get's iffy to the extreme. For bigger numbers, some major work needs to be redone. But until then, the tC's 2AZ is a pretty sturdy little block ready for some amount of thrashing.

rhythmnsmoke

Ok, I'm going to chime back in here about the k20. As you keep comparing the 2az to the k20.

Several questions come to mind, because I don't know entirely to much about the SI (engine wise).

1) Did all previous SI's come with the K20 motor, or just the new 06?

More than a few times you have said that the K20 responds to mods better than the 2zz, which has spawned my second question.

2) What "mods" are you speaking of in particular? Can you clarify this for me? Are you trying to say that if I add a full cat-back system to the 2az powered tC, that I'm going to get substantially less % of increase in whp than if I was to add a full cat-back to the k20 powered SI? Small mods like that, can not justify that a k20 responds better to mods than the 2az.

3) How many boosted 2zz Celica's do you know of.?

4) Can you straight bolt on a turbo system to the 2zz powered Celica and yeild 250hp+ to the wheels without any upgrades to the engine AND remain reliable doing it?

5) If answered yes to question #4, can you point me in the direction of a company/vendor offereing a turbo kit for the 2zz Celica?

6) In comparison, how strong do you think aftermarket support GREW for the 2zz powered Celica when it first hit the street as it is for the 2az powered tC?

I don't think people where to eager to boost the celica as they did the tC. I don't recall Hotchkis, Turbonetics, Greddy...etc, making boost on 2zz Celica's when they hit the show room floor. With the tC, they were boosted, before people even knew what a tC let alone a SCION even was. Boost on the 2az came rather quick when the tC hit the road.

You can have an opinion, that's fine. But your opinion does not supersede FACTS. FACT is, the Celica, and it's engine died when toyota decided to replace it's 3s-gte turbo charged 200hp, AWD setup with a Not so friendly boosting 2zz, FWD setup.

And IMO, GIVEN EQUAL Drivers, I think the tC wins the shotgun down the 1/4. In the corners the SI should win, due to better handling and lighter body. But down the 1/4, against a tC, I would never put my money on the SI.


I was surfing around Streefire.net (which Ironically there are NO, I repeat NO vids of a boosted Celica nowhere on the site, and there are like 5 or 6 vids of boosted tC's on the site already, and the Celica has been around a lot longer).

Anyhow, I ran across one vid of a Celica beating some SVT Focus, and I started to read the comments on the vid. NATURALLY, it turned into a flame war, but what got me was this dude started talking. I don't know him personally, but he claimed to have a Bachelors degree in engineering, and have been to school for cars for like 7 years. Anyhow, this is what he had to say about the Celcia engine...



PS...Sorry for the long post.

garyc_01

ok guys, stop with the arguements.. i would like to tell everyone here that tc just came out so all the tcs out there from stock to mods. a si will win. i own a 06 tc too,was close to wait and check out the new 06 si. but you know what? i got a tc instead. some of the honda's eng. was made for performance. the tc eng. was really not made for it. due to reliability that's wat toyota stands for. a 2az are camry motors wit slight internals. differances scion is the fairy new and im sorry to say this agian civic will win as far as everything. cause honda target was for really performance. and toyota was target for realibity. aftermarket parts everything you see from magz. to speed shops to internet performance shops hondas are all over it. and alot of tuners been playing about with civics more. as far as wat i know i still perfer a tc over a si. and if im right next gen of tc depending on sales and all the stuff the next tc will have over 230hp w/ fi... last thing DONT HATE!!

rhythmnsmoke

^^ Not with the engine from the factory. Which I think everyone seems to mislead people, cause they automatically associate the Civic with an engine swap, like it came from the factory like that.

Again, FACT outweighs Opinions. FACT, you are going to get less whp on the 1.6-1.8 FACTORY motor in the Civic than that you would on the FACTORY 2.4L tC. You Can't Change physics my friend.

On another note, the Civic has been around a long time in the import world, which has it's benefits (you can get a crap load of goods/services for any one of them) and it's downside (B16, 18, H22 Civics, hatchbacks, SI's are Played out). Nobody is doing them anymore, and they have went to the ricers.

garyc_01

i was talkin about from stock to mods no swaps. i still like the tc over the 06 si

rhythmnsmoke

Then you really are stretching it.

Haven't lost to a stock SI yet, or modded Civics with I/H/E (stock regular Civics are a waste of my gas).. And if I did, I would respect him for being the faster man/woman, and not make stupid ricer excuses.

Man, I hope someone brings an 06 SI to the track when it warms up here.

garyc_01

rhy, vs 06 si? and ur must be stock too or who ever