rhythmnsmoke

^^I already said the 06 SI should win against a Stock tC. My argument was that all previous SI's stock vs stock are slower than the tC.

I will take one for the team

PS...By the time it warms up here (Freakin dosen't snow when it suppose to, instead it snows here in the middle of Jan. Crazy TN weather!), we will be lightly modded. ZPI S-pipe, exhaust, and ver. 2 crank pulley will be worked in at the end of this month.

garyc_01

i agree the last gen.. si was crap.. and they couldnt even get rid of them the msrp was like 19k and the dealer by my drop 3k 2 get rid of them

senseiturtle

I dont know what Si's you've been running, but the tC is not faster than the previous generation Si's.

They are equal.


And this goes for everyone, please feel free to back up your statements with videos, timeslips, and facts. I'm hoping to encourage much less "i smoked it" statements, which are unverifiable to say the least.

The EP3 si makes the same power, is lighter, and has more aggressive 3-4-5 gearing. It will win in the long run. And before you start screaming "torque," you need to do some research on what truly matters in a full-out drag race.

killerxromances

Okay...
1. 06' is the first k20z1, the prior gen had a k20 as well but it was a different one.. I forget the exact engine code for the previous one, something wants me to say k20z2 but i could be wrong.

2. I'm talking about any power mods. Wether it be i/h/e, or wether it be heads, pistons, ecu, cams, whatever.

3. I personally don't know any, but a friend of mine drives a gt-s n/a that knows two boosted 2zz's. Again, boost isn't everything.

4. I haven't built a 2zz f/i before, nor have i helped. However, they have more potential in the n/a department as f/i. I'm not denying that, i just used the 2zz as an example. But guess what, no matter what motor the tC would have came in aftermarket would have blown up just like it did for xb/xa. Prior to the 2az tC, there wasn't all that much 2az aftermarket products.

5. See 4.

6. N/a products went out fast after companies discovered it was the high point compared to f/i set ups. Again, only used the 2zz as an example...i'm not a die hard 2zz fan.

killerxromances

Exactly.

ignitionr34

my friend gotta an ep too... didn't race him but i can tell from driving his car and driving my car... its pretty much a drivers race... lowend i'd prolly take em. and highend he'd take me

btw, i'm jus curious, does anyone know what forged internals we have on the 2az?

TimmyT

K lets talk Gas.

K20z3 = LEV running on Premium only gas
11.1 compression ratio
2.0 l displacement

2azfe = ULEV running on regular octane
9.5.1 compression ratio
2.4 l displacement
There are already aftermarket piston heads for NA and FI applications 11.1 and 8.5.1 respectivly. wich sell for around 700 bucks.

If you are going NA and the 2az had a compression ratio of 11.1 what do you think the outcome would be vs. the k20z3?

This is on an NA tC. not even boosted.

People say F/I is the replacement for displacement. This is NOT the case. Run 8 psi on a 2.0l and then 8 psi on a 2.4l and see who makes the power.

the 2az is a MUCH better platform to start with than the k20z3... You want to know why? Its easier to make HP than it is to make torque.

This is why torque wins races.
The point has already been made by comparing the dynos on a boosted rsx-s vs a boosted tC @ the same psi.
The HP numbers were pretty much the same. But the Torque Numbers were WAAAAAY off. For a Honda engine to make the torque the 2az produces it would suffer Top end and then be at the HP dis advantage (NO replacement for displacement)

Another thing with High compression engines @ N/A specifications. To prevent engine damage you must do both or one of two things.
1. Lower compression ratio
2. Replace internal components

the 2az's weakest area are the piston heads and seals. The ENTIRE az family of toyota engines have:
1. Forged Steel Connecting rods
2. One piece Cast Crank Shaft
3. Ceramic Coated piston heads
4. Cast Iron Sleeves

Also. I don't have the link now but I will edit and show you a great thread on the k20z3 engine. For you honda fanbois that think the Civic pretty much has an RSX-S engine.
(The outcome of this is going to be in favor of the civic. But this is just to prove the ignorance and bias of honda ricers in general that think they know what they are talking about with out doing research)

The 06 Si k20z3 is more closely related to the TSX engine than the RSX.
Civic Si engine info

senseiturtle

Horsepower and gearing win drag races.

This is beating a dead horse.

TimmyT

Sheesh are you guys going to make me post the gearing ratios of both cars to show that the Si and tC have almost exact same gearing?

Civic si gear ratio

gear ratios 3.267:1, 2.130:1, 1.517:1, 1.147:1, 0.921:1, 0.659:1

The tC gear ratios can be found in the PDF file in the tC section.

tc gear ratios 3.54:1, 2.05:1, 1.33:1, .97:1, .78:1

So there goes the "Civic has the gearing advantage" rebuttle...

Cause it doesn't.

1st gear: Tc has a shorter gear. by about .27 teeth per inch.
2nd gear: Civic has a shorter gear by .08 teeth per inch
3rd gear: Civic has a shorther gear by .187 teeth per inch
4th gear: Civic has a shorter gear by .145 teeth per inch
5th gear: civic has a shorter gear by .141 teeth per inch

While 2-5th gear shows civic has slightly shorter gears. It is not enough to give it any type of advantage in performance with the 24 ft lb torque deficit to a NA tC, or the 50 ft lb torque deficit to a S/C tC.

BreakTheStatic

^^^^ Very nice posts. Most of the info you need to compare the two engines/transmissions right there

killerxromances

Too bad he isn't looking beyond the tq differences and looking at the design of other factors. Tq doesn't win races alone, this has been discussed over and over and this thread isn't about tq to begin with. If you want to start up a thread do so, but don't use this thread.

Obviously the combination of lsd, gearing, and other factors put the Si above the tC. Oh, how about the fact the Si was designed for performance overall compared to the tC. Well, thats probably a big part of it. How about also the fact that with just the s/c and no additional mods the tC only runs between 14.9-15.3+ depending on driver, while the Si bone stock can run 14.9-15.3+ depending on driver stock. Neither is all that fast, people agree with that yet people get offended when someone says a s/c on a tC isn't that fast after they spent the $4,000 in parts and labor for it.

K20z3 is also more so mod happy than the 2az, in most cases. I also might point out TimmyT's psi theroy with 2.0l vs. 2.4l motors. Gains will be very similar on both, displacement generally does not decide gains per mod or per psi level, it only usually decides overall whp/tq abilities. Which, with the displacement of the 2az hasn't done anything too incredible yet. 2.4l with 300whp is impressive for what car it is, but not for displacement arguements. Not when 1.8l's run that fairly easily with the right time and money.

TimmyT

This thread is about the s/c tC. And by going off of honda and toyota numbers. Both vehicles weigh the same, both vehicles have similar bhp, I just proved both have similar gearing. What is left?
The LSD and torque.

Now since this is a s/c tC thread. LSD is nice, but in straight line. Do you think it makes up for almost a 60 ft/lb torque deficit?
Since the vehicles are similar in almost every way in the power train. It comes down to torque as the only main difference and that difference is Huge..

You can't say the k20z3 responds to mods better than the tC... You know why? Show me parts # for aftermarket parts for the z3?

People have fabricated and fashioned CAIs for the Si from RSX-S platform. But thier are no official parts for the k20z3 and no official gains per part.
Now do you want to know why the rsx-s parts aren't a direct bolt on?.... Cause the civic isn't an RSX-S! The engine bay is much smaller and The engine is closer related to a TSX...

You claim I am not looking beyond torque.. Well you aren't looking beyond HP. Everyone knows HP is easier to produce than torque. I have yet seen any 1.8 l making 300 whp with the same torque numbers as a 2.4l making the same whp.

Let me put it in something related to this thread.

2,905 lb vehicle with 190 whp, and 185 ft/lb of torque
vs.
2,877 lb vehicle with (i'll be liberal with this) 180 whp and 125 ft/lb of torque.

Wich vehicle has more power? and based off these numbers wich vehicle should be quicker?

When All factors (HP, weight, Gearing) are pretty much identical and what is left is torque. What wins races?

LSD doesn't win races. LSD helps, but it is not going to make up for the deficit the Si has in torque.

The torque wouldn't be sucha big deal if the Si, Like the tC, wasn't a fat ****.

We didn't even touch on power band. All the way up to 6200 rpm the s/c tC out powers the civic in HP and torque. Below 5000 RPM the civic si doesn't even come close to the same power output of a s/c tC.

Up to about 4,000 rpms the NA tC outpowers the Civic in Hp and torque......

You said it your self. ", displacement generally does not decide gains per mod or per psi level, it only usually decides overall whp/tq abilities."

Greater displacement = greater potential?????

And you only partially touched on my so called "Theory"

The 2.0l will not have similar numbers mod for mod or psi for psi.

It might have similar top end gains.... or perhaps similar low end gains. But it will always be one or the other and not both.
To match the top end of a larger displacement engine It will sacrifice low end power. To match the low end it will sacrifice top end power.

I have seen a 300 whp b16 eg vic running turbos and a sprayed intercooler.
You honda guys go "WOW! 300 whp!!!!"
Then the rest of us laugh (I am not kidding here when i put this number up) when we see 200 ft/lb of torque.

I am willing to bet money that the turbonetics, dezod or zpi tC running around 230-250 whp and about 80 ft/lb more torque than that civic will run the 1/4 faster

The math is all wrong. For the vic mags are using the formula 2+2=5, and for the s/c tC 2+2=3.

Everything about the s/c tC vs. the civic si points to the s/c tC being faster than the vic straight line.

The fact that in thier tests the Si and tC performed the same is fishy.

Either 1. They had tons of wheel spin/hop

And if 1 is correct then 2 is a given

2. the driver sucked

and if 2 is correct then 3 is a possibility

3. The driver didn't take the s/c tC to near redline b4 shifting to get optimal power.

Long post

killerxromances

Did i say the k20 in the Si was a rsx-s? Rsx-s has a k20z1 rather than k20z3, this has already been talked about if you had read prior to coming on this particular thread.

As for 1/4 times. My 97' gsr last dyno'd 231whp @ 7,100rpm (raised redline of 8,600rpm), and tq was 158. With custom gearing and all top end (i had virtually no top end, which never bothered me. Honda designs their motors to be top end power plants anyway) i still ran a constant 13.3-13.5 1/4. 230whp tC's are barely breaking mid 14's even with your upper 100's, low 200's in torque numbers.

Also, if you notice a lot of the honda's breaking low 12's high 11's have 300whp-400whp and have low tq numbers compared to the hp numbers. So your arguement that tq wins races is false if you factor in everything else. Traditionally, yes you are correct. But traditionally we would also be talking about cars that weigh in some cases two times what the regular car weighs due to materials used..Which in that case, tq would matter the most.

Diseals are another prime example. Tons, and tons of tq, but with low whp applications they are slow as crap. Neither whp or tq alone will win races, you can deal with that fact.

killerxromances

I might also point out the fact k20z3 does have aftermarket, if you actually looked online for parts you can find them. Not as common as the k20z1, k20a, k20a2, B16, B20 or whatever else yet. Not as common, but it will be blown up all the same. Especially JDM carriers and part companies.

TimmyT

Thats all fine and dandy... Let's see all other tC's that are running 230 ish whp and see what torque numbers they are putting down. GET OFF YOUR HP Horse!

The fact is there is no replacement for displacement.

You are basing your argument on vehicles that weigh a good 500+ Lbs lighter than BOTH cars wich all have greater Torque than the Civic SI (Not the tC Though ANd barely more than a NA tC)

You are correct in saying neither WHP nor Torque alone. wins races. BUT more often than not Torque is the deciding factor of winning and losing races.

I Said when Weight, gearing, and HP are virtually identical. Torque is the deciding factor. Making HP is easier than making torque and thats why torque wins races.

Also for your aftermarket support for the k20z3. I asked for part #s. I can give you plenty of aftermarket part #s for the tC.

Another horse you gotta get off of is: "I See a lot of hondas in the 11s.. blah blah blah."

The tC has been out for a year. the 2az has been out for longer, but since it was in a family sedan it hasn't been in the aftermarket performance community.
So since its introduction into the tuning world in the tC, just like the tC, it is an infant and will grow.

Within the 1st 8 months of the release of the tC. Scionspeed had a daily drivin tC in the 12's almost 11s. on stock internals with a Phantom grip LSD and custom dual exhaust @ 15 psi i believe.

So in the first 8 months of its life the tC almost touched in the 11's you honda guys are so proud your vehicle platforms, wich have been researched and developed for over a decade, are able to do.

killerxromances

I will also point out these factors of the K20z3:
-K20z3 has a K20a2 style head, based off a2 model K series.
-K20a3 influenced balance shaft.
-Camshafts are K20z1 style and very similar to the z1 series
So on.

These are only a few highlights of the K20z3. A downfall though, is the ecu. Unlike other K-series, it seems honda has stuck a ecu in the z3 that is mod friendly to a certain degree. However, ECU swaps is easier on a honda than a toyota. Not to mention, with companies like Spoon the k20z3 within its first year should see very good numbers, and looks promising to hold up to the K series name.

I might also point out again with the 2.0l 2.4l displacement psi theory of yours, and a few others. The Rsx-s reaches 300whp+ with CN "stage 1" turbo as one example, running on 9-10.5psi. Very, very similar to what ZPI has been able to show.

The k20z3 has a great deal of potential, but as for aftermarket currently the parts are there, but limited. Infact, very limited. However, by december there will be more parts for the k20z3 compared to the 2az i am willing to bet. There are already parts rolling out that have been in design phases prior to Si being released. Companies did what ever they could to start designing due to they new Si owners would be ready for parts right after they bought their cars.

Tons of JDM companies are also on the "bandwagon" with design and development phases now and plan to start releasing as early as mid-spring. So with this said, due to the design of the k20z3 it has tons of potential, and does and will respond better to mods than a 2az. Infact, most honda motors respond better to mods than the 2az. Some don't, but a lot of them do. Which is part of the reason why the 2az has viritually had no aftermarket support prior to the tC being released.

killerxromances

Scionspeed also destroyed some motors and their kits were designed for power, not reliability and power. The only tC doing both right now is ZPI, the people that do have the zpi stage 1 are mostly hitting high 12's, which is great don't get me wrong..I mean thats fast, especially for a daily driver. But you need to get off of the displacement wagon because that theory and logic can't be used literally, only as a general rule of thumb.

TimmyT

On the road to where honda engines are now. How many engines were destoryed? The fact is they did it.

No replacement for displacement.

This is a fact! Geez get it through your head!

2.0l making 250 whp.. and how much torque?
2.4l making 250 whp and how much torque?

I hate having to repeat myself but you have the tendancy to force people to do so!

For a smaller displacement engine to produce the same WHP or top end. It must sacrifice torque or low end. and vice versa.

So a 2.0l can make the same HP as a 5.0l, but will never make the same POWER. it will be lacking in one form or another.

Also would you read my post and Click on the civic si engine link so you can learn something about the car you are talking about? I'm currently on 56k so I don't have the time or inclination to take direct quotes from that thread because its full of pictures and diagrams of the engine.(Hondtards love pictures, makes reading easier)

killerxromances

I don't need to click your link, i'm active on honda forums as well as acura forums from my gsr days. You wouldn't need to repeat yourself if you quit going on and on about the same thing that has already been discussed already. You can stop anytime now, actually i would perfer you to stop repeating yourself.

How many times do I have to tell you, tq doesn't win races. You say you agree yet every post you bring up "how much tq does ____ make, how much does _____ make in tq compared to the tC with ____ mods."

No replacement for displacement, again i have to repeat myself, should only be used as a general rule of thumb not to take it to heart. Also, what does a 5.0l have to do with anything? There are plenty of large placement motors that barely reach 250hp and 230tq. That proves nothing, especially when we are talking about a 2.0 and a 2.4l. We are aren't even talking about a full liter in difference, and here you are bringing up 5.0's. lol

Yet again, displacement doesn't prove whp/wtq gains per mod, per psi, it only proves overall out come of performance potential. However, this is also only to be used in general term due to the fact lack of designs on a higher displacement motor can actually be used against it in terms of reliable gains with long term, and short term abuse. With that said, displacement theory can only be used to a certain degree because design of motor, tranny, also makes or breaks what potential is there. The 2az is not designed for power, its designed to have a decent amount of power and tq, and still get good economy. Sure, potential is there but you are blowing up the 2az to better than what it is. And as i've said many times now, the 2az hasn't been proven to last long term with boost or serious n/a. Time can only tell, and so far theres been a few already having issues with misfires, ignition and a few other things causing problems. Nothing too serious yet, but being theres already a few signs poping up tells me either tuning is off, or something within the motor's are giving out. One or the other.

TimmyT

The 5.0 liter comment is in DIRECT Relation to the "No replacement for displacement" debate.
How you didn't understand that is beyond me.

AGAIN! You force me to repeat myself...

WTF don't you understand?! When HP is the same but torque is different?

ALSO Put a freaking Supercharger on a civic SI and a Garuntee you the s/c TC with no additional tuning or aftermarket parts will still out torque the civic. and having Forged steel connecting rods and a lower compression ratio of 9.5:1 With out any additional work can be boosted to higer lvls safer than the civic.

Go ahead! Boost a stock civic k20z3 to the max, and boost a Stock tC to the max (Wich scionspeed has done and the tC handled 18 psi of boost on stock internals before it started to lift the head)

And we'll see what makes more power. DANG I can't believe i gotta get upset about this crap.

Get your head out of your ___ kid. Numbers don't lie.

POWER is not Horse Power ALONE.

POWER is everything. HP.. Torque EVERYTHING.

Your stupid **** rebuttles "But but this 1.8 liter can make 300 whp just like a 2.4 liter...."
FLIPPIN' FINE AND DANDY!!!!

That 1.8l Is not making the Same POWER as the 2.4l.

Active on the honda forums my ****! Maybe in "Your GSR days"

But the head on the Civic Si is 100% 2.0l version of the TSX

If you clicked on the link I provided to a honda forum that you are so active on You would have learned that.

As for your lil "issues"...
Well hot dang! That one tC's wind deflector Blew up in the heat! Crap that means my car is only days away probably? Heck is probably some scion sun roof conspiracy...

I've seen one thread about a misfire... out of thousands of tCs sold.
I don't know the conditions of where they live how they drive, so how can I determine that it was 100% the tC's fault?
I know DOZENS of people that think they are the hottest drivers around but absolutely are horrible at driving...

My friend had a MT acura TL and thought he was the quickest thing on the road.
He'd take me for a "Thrill ride" and when i got out of the car all you could smell was clutch.. he quickly responded... "Do you smell my brakes??" When he did no hard braking whats so ever..

The point is Many people (particularly guys) won't admit they are less than a mediocre driver.
And unless you have conclusive proof that it was 100% engineering and not driver error Don't go around saying

"I heard this car did this... If you do that to it, then you'll blow it up!"