killerxromances

I don't have anyone near you, but if you want to travel to Ga i know quite a few Si's that will take your offer, and you wouldn't be able to touch them. Unless you think your tC can run low 14's to low 13's. Most of the guys i know in Ga are n/a, but theres two boosted Si's as well. If he still has his, i know a n/a 02' Si running high 12's n/a.

rhythmnsmoke

^^umm...did you forget that I'm all stock. When I go boost, then my statement would read something like this...

"Anyone got any SI buds near me with a little something under the hood that I can roast, otherwise don't waste my time and more importantly my gas."

Therefore, I'm speaking on fairly stock SI's.....well, I'll let them have I/H/E, to give them a slight edge, so I don't beat them as bad....heheeeheeee..

PS...I'm actually a humble person by nature(stem from Martial Arts training), but talking sh$% is fun sometimes.

TimmyT

I'm still waiting on why the civic si is > then the s/c tC reasons. because honestly I see absolutely no reason why the Si is even close to being better than the s/c tC.

Killer is out of reasons to support the Si. Except for on a road course the SI would be faster than a tC.

Pound for pound price for price the s/c tC is a better car.

killerxromances

No, i'm out of reasons as to why i should continue debating with you. If you want my reasons, look back at the rest of my posts before you came on here and read. I'm not going to repeat everything i've already said for you.

Typhoon

argue all you want about the si's price but like i said I know a person that works there he is a dealer and I doubt he was lying to me when he told me that every si he sold so far was around 25000. Rememeber this isnt scion they dont try to sell the car for base price the more the dealer marks up the car the more money he makes on the deal why wouldnt he try to mark it up. And on top of that no car is sold for the base price evey car I know you have to bargain for and the dealers always try to screw you by overcharging.

Ones again this isnt even an arguement I have proof of what the si is going for at the dealerhip thats sells a good amount of cars and I doubt they are the only ones selling it for that.

However I do agree that with bargbaining skills and knowledge of what the car is suppose to cost you can get it down lower but it will def not be for the price you see on the internet it will be marked up anyways people want these cars that means they get to sell to highest paying customer. As far as I know scion and saturn are the only two car companies that dealers arent allowed to try and pull anythign and you pay what you advertised for.

rhythmnsmoke

I concur.

TimmyT

I have already obliterated your reasons on why the civic SI is a better car than a s/c tC. The SI isn't even a better car than the NA tC up to 4000 RPM.

I am looking for NEW reasons why you are supporting the SI. Because all your old reasons are all disproven, and Your knowledge of the vehicle you are supporting is limited.

I drive and own a scion tC. I have never owned a Honda.

1986 Turbo Supra
1995 Nissan 200sx SE-R
My 1998 Mitsu Mirage (Gas saver )
and Now my tC.

So After looking at the tale of the tape concerning the 2 vehicles I want some new information on why you think the Civic Si is a better car than the tC.

cmndrjamesbond

Killerx, before you start running your mouth about the Civic Si putting down 180 whp, I suggest you take a look at AEM's intake dyno. 163whp pre intake ain't 180. If you wanna keep claiming that a higher geared 163whp Civic can take a 190whp S/C tC, then please, continue to do so, just don't expect anyone to believe anything you say anymore. Don't even think about claiming this dyno is inaccurate, its the same shop that dyno'd a tC at 143whp baseline.

http://www.aempower.com/pdf/dyno/21-...-Si_CAS-HP.pdf

killerxromances

cmn - If they dyno'd a stock tC at 143whp, then their dyno is reading off. A stock tC, 95% of everyone who has dyno'd a stock tC will tell you it falls between 133-138whp on average. Theres also about five other dyno's i've heard/seen on honda/acura forums that show 180-190whp, some as high as 195whp but thats a little too high. This is also from companies, and one i've seen was a private owner on a honda forum i believe.

Timmy- You never fail to entertain me. No one has disproven anything i have said, all everyone has done is debated with me. Theres a fine line between debating and being completely disproven. Also, my knowledge upon honda, and experience with their cars and motors are more than most of you guys that are arguing with me. Even some that have debated with me that disagree with me recognizes that fact. Only knowledge that you appear to have is for the tC, thats the problem with these kinds of threads..Everyone has a bias opinion, but when someone that doesn't own either and steps in, they automatically know nothing and they should leave the thread because they don't own a tC.

Typhoon - As i have said many times now, not all dealerships are doing % mark up. Your friend obviously is one that is doing the mark up, but most dealerships (around here anyway) are selling base Si's for $19,990. You can disagree with me all you want, it really doesn't matter because in the end of the day $25,000 is a mark up over base.

cmndrjamesbond

Hmm, so this inaccurate dyno magically inflated the numbers of the tC, while at the same time robbing the Si of 25 whp? Like anyone is going to believe that.

killerxromances

If i recall, they didn't dyno the Si and tC back to back did they? This dyno they used may not even be the same one. Do you have specifics on the dyno for the tC and dyno for the Si? No, i didn't say it was the same dyno. What i said was, there are more dyno runs supporting my arguement than yours, and, the numbers for the tC is off. Quit jumping to conclusions with my words.

cmndrjamesbond

Tell you what, I'll stop jumping to conclusions if you take up base jumping without a chute.

surfcity40

so, i'm on my way to a birthday party last night and on the way this 06 si wants to race. freakin' beat him by two car lengths. so we pull over at starbucks and i say "dude, the only way we'll really know which car is faster is if we switch cars and do it again. so i ask the nine party clowns to get out of my car and wait at starbucks....took forever for them to pile out. then i get in this guy's car and i can't see a freakin' thing. it's night time but i'm in freakin' pick your zits bathroom lighting. he had fluorescent lights under every nook and cranny and they weren't like blue or some other soothing color... they were freakin' battery operated shop lights.

anyway, i'm settling in and he comes over and knocks on the driver window and goes, "i'm calling this thing off. there's no clutch, how do you shift this thing?"

i go "dude, it's an automatic." he goes, "so your point is?"

jk

killerxromances

I know that was a joke, but you could have made it a more believable one.

rhythmnsmoke

Where do you come up with this stuff?....

kungpaosamuraiii

Yea.. not having searched right now.. off the top of my head.. I have rarely seen a stock tC dyno less than 140 whp.

Also, most of these supercharged tC dynos look to be right around 190-200 whp leaning towards 192~ whp and not the 180-185 whp that you seem to be convinced of. Maybe I haven't seen that many dynos but I do think you're factually wrong about the apparently huge drive train loss the tC suffers.



BTW, TimmyT, torque is probably the tC's worst enemy too. Putting so much torque so soon, as you put it, below 4k rpm,coupled with the pretty angry gearing, means a lot of wheel spin. The relative lack of torque that the 06 Si has (or more rather the torque that it doesn't) probably allows the car to start moving a little bit before VTEC hits and throw the wheels into some smokey action. But that probably means people just launch higher and the point is null so it could very well be up to the LSD.

TimmyT

I have proven that the gearing in the tC and Si are near identical, wich you have used as an advantage the SI has over the tC before.
You insist that the Civic Si is pretty much an RSX-S engine in a New body because its a K series engine. This is not the case and I have proven that by providing a link that shows information on the k20z3 engine and that it is more closely related to a TSX engine.

Now all that put aside. Comparing the vehicles side by side what sways your decision towards the Civic Si?
Cause from a non biased point a view. When you look at the base MSRP, The performance numbers, and everything else we have been discussing. The only thing the supercharged tC doesn't have over the Civic Si is the LSD.

So is the LSD the only reason why you would advise someone to buy a Civic Si over a tC?

yah Kungpao, the torque on the tC does = a lot of wheel spin. But I'd rather have the low power to work with than not to have it at all.

kungpaosamuraiii

The wheel spin I'm almost confident would be of little consequence with an LSD so I'm not extremely worried about that. But I would really love it if all that torque the tC has would keep on building up to 7k RPM which the Si can do (its torque is a bit less than the tC's torque but its integral is larger than the tC's torque curve integral). Of course, the torque by itself doesn't make any speedy car but the product of torque and engine speed do. The tC has the torque but it doesn't make much torque at high engine speeds and that's one of the main pitfalls of the 2AZ-FE (I hope the GE head will fix that! if it comes out that is.. )

Err, where was I... Oh yes, it's not correct to say that torque is what wins races. Getting the car from one point to the next point is work and the ability to do that work is power so greater power is what wins the race. Now, with that said, it's been established that due to the relatively similar weights and all that business the Si isn't too much better than a tC (as one would expect for 200 bhp VTEC and LSD and all that) which just goes to show what a good car the tC is that it can hang with cars purpose built for performance. Slap a supercharger on the 2AZ.. well actually, I'm sure with the right drivers we should be seeing mid to high 14's on supercharged tCs. These professional drivers just haven't been able to get used to the tC's short gearing and quick torque.


Jeez, I lost myself again.. oh well. There are other reasons why I would get an Si over a tC. The Si comes straight from the factory with a superios suspension setup than the tC. The suspension on the Si is also more condusive to handling and the like modifications (think sway bar endlinks and outer/inner control arm unbalancing.) Aside from that, it has replaced displacement with high RPM to make power (think F1 cars that have miniscule 2.4 and 3.0 litre engines.)



I would still recommend a tC over an Si though as I still maintain that the tC has a better base block for big power (unless the K20z series are closed deck blocks?) Relatively low compression pistons and beefy internals as well as styling that I like and uniqueness relative to other cars without the blatant attempts at attention. And there is really no replacement for displacement as, with all other factors equal, displacement wins. The trick is getting the parts to equal the parts on a faster car.

rhythmnsmoke

Your just going to replace it with Tein's later anyways...

killerxromances

Um no, i have already clearly stated that the k20z1 and k20z3 are two different motors. However, if you knew how they designed the k20z3 you would know that some parts are based off the k20z1 and some parts are shared. There is more relation between the z1 and z3 compared to a tsx.