My Dezod Turbo Manifold cracked..
09-03-2009, 03:24 AM
#42
I've got my F/IC coming off the Vac block. I only use 8 psi now but I've had it adjusted to 10 before. I'm guessing a throttle body T would be the best way if I decided to bump up the boost? It didn't seem to have any problems off the Vac block before. These cars are weird... lol
09-03-2009, 03:27 AM
#43
Former Sponsor
SL Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 401
09-03-2009, 03:48 AM
#44
Senior Member
Fresh Crew
SL Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Atlanta/Charlotte/Auburn
Posts: 2,243
I've got my F/IC coming off the Vac block. I only use 8 psi now but I've had it adjusted to 10 before. I'm guessing a throttle body T would be the best way if I decided to bump up the boost? It didn't seem to have any problems off the Vac block before. These cars are weird... lol
Off the vac block I had the factory vac pressure switch, WG, BOV, F/IC and boost gauge.
Even though I was running a 10psi spring the boost gauge would only see 8psi.
The F/IC saw all types of fluctuation from 8 psi to 7 psi to 11 psi, just very unstable.
The F/IC should have its own source, i.e. the brake booster so it has a stable signal.
I learned a lot from PTUNING and Toan, they showed me things and fixed things.
09-03-2009, 04:23 AM
#46
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,603
Mine comes from the vac block and it works fine... it's even Tee'd off my electronic boost controller - not the actuator but the receiving unit that reads boost levels. I have rock solid boost - and I've been at 9, 10, 11, and 12 settings - all solid.
09-03-2009, 05:24 AM
#49
Every setup is different and has it's issues but the guys at PTuning should definitely be taken seriously if they give you a suggestion. One big no-no from what I hear is running your WG off your Vac block. I've got mine coming right off the compressor housing.
09-03-2009, 01:49 PM
#51
Senior Member
Fresh Crew
SL Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Atlanta/Charlotte/Auburn
Posts: 2,243
The guys at PTUNING said running off the compressor housing for the WG is definitely the best way to do it but that would mean tapping the compressor housing so I have mine off the vac block instead.
09-03-2009, 01:51 PM
#52
Senior Member
Fresh Crew
SL Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Atlanta/Charlotte/Auburn
Posts: 2,243
Something about the sensor in the F/IC; that would explain my sporadic boost levels, the FIC was seeing everything. I had a boost controller to the wastegate, FIC, boost gauge and BOV all off the vac block. PTUNING relocated the FIC source to the brake booster and made some other corrections and everything is rock solid.
09-03-2009, 03:27 PM
#53
09-03-2009, 04:52 PM
#54
Tapping the compressor housing for the boost control signal of the wastegate gives a false sense of the turbocharger's output to the gate, but is perfectly acceptable. I have done turbo'd cars both ways without issue. My preference is off of the IM. I will explain...
The turbo is creating boost until the wastegate opens fully, then all further pressure is diverted from the manifold and turbo through to the dump tube.
If the wastegate is getting it's signal from the turbocharger's compressor outlet, then you do not have a real accurate depiction of what boost is actually going into your plenum. You know what is leaving the compressor, but not what is being "stolen" due to drag from your intercooler and pipe bends on the piping.
If the wastegate is getting it's signal from somewhere off of the intake manifold, it's getting a true perspective of what is entering the plenum AFTER drag from the intercooler and pipes.
You can use either. Both have their ups and downs.
The turbo is creating boost until the wastegate opens fully, then all further pressure is diverted from the manifold and turbo through to the dump tube.
If the wastegate is getting it's signal from the turbocharger's compressor outlet, then you do not have a real accurate depiction of what boost is actually going into your plenum. You know what is leaving the compressor, but not what is being "stolen" due to drag from your intercooler and pipe bends on the piping.
If the wastegate is getting it's signal from somewhere off of the intake manifold, it's getting a true perspective of what is entering the plenum AFTER drag from the intercooler and pipes.
You can use either. Both have their ups and downs.
09-03-2009, 06:28 PM
#55
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 132
Since we run our WG line to the turbo compressor housing, I should probably explain why we do what we do.
There is a reason ALL car manufacturers who build turbocharged cars run the wastegate boost source signal off of the compressor housing or turbo outlet pipe. The compressor outlet provides the strongest and most reliable pneumatic signal available to control the wastegate. I'll just name a few:
MR-2 Turbo
Supra Turbo
Supra TT
300ZX Turbo
300ZX TT
RX-7 Turbo
RX-7 TT
Audi 1.8t
Audi 2.0FSI
VW 1.8t
VW 2.0FSI
Mazdaspeed3
Mazdaspeed6
Mazdaspeed Protege
EVO 1-10
DSM Turbo
WRX
STi
Neon SRT-4
etc, etc, etc
Let me give you a few scenarios here:
Scenario 1:
Your wastegate uses an 8 psi spring.
Now let's say your driving along one day and your intercooler takes a rock hit and loses about 2 psi and your TB coupler starts to crack and leak out another 3 psi.
If you run your boost source from the intake manifold or vacuum block, it will need to generate 8 psi to overcome the WG spring pressure to regulate boost. With the 5 psi loss you now have in your system, your turbocharger will have to work harder and spin faster (less turbocharger efficiency) in order to achieve 8 psi at the manifold in order to crack the wastegate open.
Now if your boost signal was off of your compressor housing, you would immediately notice on your boost gauge that you're only producing about 3 psi, when you should be making 8 psi. Immediately, you will know to look around for the source of your boost leak.
Scenario 2
You decide to add a standard bleeder style manual boost controller to your turbo system to increase the boost a few pounds. You decide to run the boost signal from the intake manifold or vacuum block, well guess what? Your're going to end up with a nasty hissing sound during idle (engine vacuum) caused by the fact that your manual bleeder style boost controller is essentially just that, a bleeder valve.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing you could run a manual bleeder style valve without any problems, because your turbo compressor outlet will produce neither boost nor vacuum at idle.
Scenario 3
You decide to run ALL your vacuum lines to the TB vacuum source with a bazzillion tees or to a vacuum block. You've connected your boost gauge, FIC vacuum line, WMI boost line, BOV line, and boost feedback for the WG all to the same block or vacuum point. All it takes is the failure of one or more vacuum lines or tee fitting to cause an overboost situation.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing, you would have WAY fewer potential failure points and a much lower chance of overboosting.
Hope this helps clarify why we went through the hassle of separating the BOV line from the WG line from the FIC vacuum input line. After all, it's more work for us to tap the compressor housing before we ship out each SS Turbo System, but now everyone can understand why we do what we do.
- Toan
There is a reason ALL car manufacturers who build turbocharged cars run the wastegate boost source signal off of the compressor housing or turbo outlet pipe. The compressor outlet provides the strongest and most reliable pneumatic signal available to control the wastegate. I'll just name a few:
MR-2 Turbo
Supra Turbo
Supra TT
300ZX Turbo
300ZX TT
RX-7 Turbo
RX-7 TT
Audi 1.8t
Audi 2.0FSI
VW 1.8t
VW 2.0FSI
Mazdaspeed3
Mazdaspeed6
Mazdaspeed Protege
EVO 1-10
DSM Turbo
WRX
STi
Neon SRT-4
etc, etc, etc
Let me give you a few scenarios here:
Scenario 1:
Your wastegate uses an 8 psi spring.
Now let's say your driving along one day and your intercooler takes a rock hit and loses about 2 psi and your TB coupler starts to crack and leak out another 3 psi.
If you run your boost source from the intake manifold or vacuum block, it will need to generate 8 psi to overcome the WG spring pressure to regulate boost. With the 5 psi loss you now have in your system, your turbocharger will have to work harder and spin faster (less turbocharger efficiency) in order to achieve 8 psi at the manifold in order to crack the wastegate open.
Now if your boost signal was off of your compressor housing, you would immediately notice on your boost gauge that you're only producing about 3 psi, when you should be making 8 psi. Immediately, you will know to look around for the source of your boost leak.
Scenario 2
You decide to add a standard bleeder style manual boost controller to your turbo system to increase the boost a few pounds. You decide to run the boost signal from the intake manifold or vacuum block, well guess what? Your're going to end up with a nasty hissing sound during idle (engine vacuum) caused by the fact that your manual bleeder style boost controller is essentially just that, a bleeder valve.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing you could run a manual bleeder style valve without any problems, because your turbo compressor outlet will produce neither boost nor vacuum at idle.
Scenario 3
You decide to run ALL your vacuum lines to the TB vacuum source with a bazzillion tees or to a vacuum block. You've connected your boost gauge, FIC vacuum line, WMI boost line, BOV line, and boost feedback for the WG all to the same block or vacuum point. All it takes is the failure of one or more vacuum lines or tee fitting to cause an overboost situation.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing, you would have WAY fewer potential failure points and a much lower chance of overboosting.
Hope this helps clarify why we went through the hassle of separating the BOV line from the WG line from the FIC vacuum input line. After all, it's more work for us to tap the compressor housing before we ship out each SS Turbo System, but now everyone can understand why we do what we do.
- Toan
09-03-2009, 07:42 PM
#56
Yes, this is the absolute other side of the coin. I think this will pose an excellent factual information conversation for the SL community to learn some stuff. To each their own and I think that the customer can and should make their own decision based upon what they have available AND what components they are using.
Scenario 1:
Your wastegate uses an 8 psi spring.
Now let's say your driving along one day and your intercooler takes a rock hit and loses about 2 psi and your TB coupler starts to crack and leak out another 3 psi.
If you run your boost source from the intake manifold or vacuum block, it will need to generate 8 psi to overcome the WG spring pressure to regulate boost. With the 5 psi loss you now have in your system, your turbocharger will have to work harder and spin faster (less turbocharger efficiency) in order to achieve 8 psi at the manifold in order to crack the wastegate open.
Now if your boost signal was off of your compressor housing, you would immediately notice on your boost gauge that you're only producing about 3 psi, when you should be making 8 psi. Immediately, you will know to look around for the source of your boost leak.
In this scenario if you had THAT severe of a leak, you would notice that even in vacuum. Having a hole in the IC would be the equivalent of a severe boost leak. It would be like 2 pipes coming undone and your vehicle will respond accordingly as virtually dieing, PIG rich AFRs (on our non-blow through MAF) setup. You would undeniably know what the issue is if this where the case. So I do not fell that is necessarily one to worry about there. Of course it's possible! It has even snowed in South Florida before.....
Furthermore, your turbo spinning faster will not necessarily shoot it out of efficiency unless the vehicle has a SEVERE case in boost leak. Having an appropriately sized turbocharger operating in the efficiency range of the boost levels it was designed for is and should be part of the design elements overall in a well engineered turbo system. If this is the case, even if the turbo had to make 20 PSI of boost just to register 8, it's not out of efficiency. Again, close monitoring of driving habits and gauge instrumentation, the customer would notice these changes in the car's behavior, pull over and inspect.
I sat down with a customer's data yesterday and plotted out a 50 trim turbocharger at 22PSI on the 2AZ with a stock redline, and efficiency was there even at that boost level. I was very well impressed on that notion. <end tangent>
Scenario 2
You decide to add a standard bleeder style manual boost controller to your turbo system to increase the boost a few pounds. You decide to run the boost signal from the intake manifold or vacuum block, well guess what? Your're going to end up with a nasty hissing sound during idle (engine vacuum) caused by the fact that your manual bleeder style boost controller is essentially just that, a bleeder valve.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing you could run a manual bleeder style valve without any problems, because your turbo compressor outlet will produce neither boost nor vacuum at idle.
This would be a viable case argument to do it off the compressor housing. This for sure I agree with you 100% on.
Scenario 3
You decide to run ALL your vacuum lines to the TB vacuum source with a bazzillion tees or to a vacuum block. You've connected your boost gauge, FIC vacuum line, WMI boost line, BOV line, and boost feedback for the WG all to the same block or vacuum point. All it takes is the failure of one or more vacuum lines or tee fitting to cause an overboost situation.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing, you would have WAY fewer potential failure points and a much lower chance of overboosting.
This situation again is quite similar to the first and, I have run into with a customer's car. He had a cracked vacuum line, and the car would faulted at idle pretty bad. Chased all through possible things, for it to be a a small piece of line. Thankfully enough it was for the customer just that and not something serious. A simple $6 fix at Advanced Auto did the trick.
The most important lines in this case would be that to the engine management and to the BOV. I feel these lines should be properly inspected at each and every oil change to see if any signs of wear, breakage and/or heat alteration.
MAF based cars are VERY sensitive to VE changes and/or vac changes. So, with that being said your car will respond different when something is wrong. Hands down! Try driving around with an intercooler pipe have undone and see for yourself (not you guys, but SL'rs reading this). You will know what it feel like. Try pinching a vac line at idle. See how the car reacts. Try slitting a hole in a vac line and see how the car reacts at idle as well. Take note, and remember for your own sake. It's an excellent learning experience for those whom have not gone through it.
THIS IS ALSO WHY WE RECOMMEND INSTRUMENTATION WHEN BOOSTING. Gauges such as a vac/boost gauge and a wideband O2 along with knowing how the car is and should be play HUGE roles in helping to spot different problems as they arise.
My only concern Toan, which I am sure you have seen too, is that some of these guys have vac lines sitting on their manifolds, on their valve covers and are doing stuff real haphazardly. I would be more concerned with potential problems stemming form that or use of poor quality parts like certain company's wastegates that fall into 2 pieces than anything.
Understand this was not a stab, disagreement, slam or anything to the fellas at PTuning. They run a solid operation (apparently) over there, but this is merely an excellent technical discussion for all to learn from!
Paul
Scenario 1:
Your wastegate uses an 8 psi spring.
Now let's say your driving along one day and your intercooler takes a rock hit and loses about 2 psi and your TB coupler starts to crack and leak out another 3 psi.
If you run your boost source from the intake manifold or vacuum block, it will need to generate 8 psi to overcome the WG spring pressure to regulate boost. With the 5 psi loss you now have in your system, your turbocharger will have to work harder and spin faster (less turbocharger efficiency) in order to achieve 8 psi at the manifold in order to crack the wastegate open.
Now if your boost signal was off of your compressor housing, you would immediately notice on your boost gauge that you're only producing about 3 psi, when you should be making 8 psi. Immediately, you will know to look around for the source of your boost leak.
In this scenario if you had THAT severe of a leak, you would notice that even in vacuum. Having a hole in the IC would be the equivalent of a severe boost leak. It would be like 2 pipes coming undone and your vehicle will respond accordingly as virtually dieing, PIG rich AFRs (on our non-blow through MAF) setup. You would undeniably know what the issue is if this where the case. So I do not fell that is necessarily one to worry about there. Of course it's possible! It has even snowed in South Florida before.....
Furthermore, your turbo spinning faster will not necessarily shoot it out of efficiency unless the vehicle has a SEVERE case in boost leak. Having an appropriately sized turbocharger operating in the efficiency range of the boost levels it was designed for is and should be part of the design elements overall in a well engineered turbo system. If this is the case, even if the turbo had to make 20 PSI of boost just to register 8, it's not out of efficiency. Again, close monitoring of driving habits and gauge instrumentation, the customer would notice these changes in the car's behavior, pull over and inspect.
I sat down with a customer's data yesterday and plotted out a 50 trim turbocharger at 22PSI on the 2AZ with a stock redline, and efficiency was there even at that boost level. I was very well impressed on that notion. <end tangent>
Scenario 2
You decide to add a standard bleeder style manual boost controller to your turbo system to increase the boost a few pounds. You decide to run the boost signal from the intake manifold or vacuum block, well guess what? Your're going to end up with a nasty hissing sound during idle (engine vacuum) caused by the fact that your manual bleeder style boost controller is essentially just that, a bleeder valve.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing you could run a manual bleeder style valve without any problems, because your turbo compressor outlet will produce neither boost nor vacuum at idle.
This would be a viable case argument to do it off the compressor housing. This for sure I agree with you 100% on.
Scenario 3
You decide to run ALL your vacuum lines to the TB vacuum source with a bazzillion tees or to a vacuum block. You've connected your boost gauge, FIC vacuum line, WMI boost line, BOV line, and boost feedback for the WG all to the same block or vacuum point. All it takes is the failure of one or more vacuum lines or tee fitting to cause an overboost situation.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing, you would have WAY fewer potential failure points and a much lower chance of overboosting.
This situation again is quite similar to the first and, I have run into with a customer's car. He had a cracked vacuum line, and the car would faulted at idle pretty bad. Chased all through possible things, for it to be a a small piece of line. Thankfully enough it was for the customer just that and not something serious. A simple $6 fix at Advanced Auto did the trick.
The most important lines in this case would be that to the engine management and to the BOV. I feel these lines should be properly inspected at each and every oil change to see if any signs of wear, breakage and/or heat alteration.
MAF based cars are VERY sensitive to VE changes and/or vac changes. So, with that being said your car will respond different when something is wrong. Hands down! Try driving around with an intercooler pipe have undone and see for yourself (not you guys, but SL'rs reading this). You will know what it feel like. Try pinching a vac line at idle. See how the car reacts. Try slitting a hole in a vac line and see how the car reacts at idle as well. Take note, and remember for your own sake. It's an excellent learning experience for those whom have not gone through it.
THIS IS ALSO WHY WE RECOMMEND INSTRUMENTATION WHEN BOOSTING. Gauges such as a vac/boost gauge and a wideband O2 along with knowing how the car is and should be play HUGE roles in helping to spot different problems as they arise.
My only concern Toan, which I am sure you have seen too, is that some of these guys have vac lines sitting on their manifolds, on their valve covers and are doing stuff real haphazardly. I would be more concerned with potential problems stemming form that or use of poor quality parts like certain company's wastegates that fall into 2 pieces than anything.
Understand this was not a stab, disagreement, slam or anything to the fellas at PTuning. They run a solid operation (apparently) over there, but this is merely an excellent technical discussion for all to learn from!
Paul
09-03-2009, 07:48 PM
#57
Former Sponsor
SL Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 401
I got a question for P-tuning and Dezod...
say you run just your wastegate vac source from your TB vac source (inbetween the TB and VSV) do you guys think that the pulsing action of the VSV could cause a high/low pressure situation and cause the wastegate not to perform properly? Also do you guys think that high boost pressures could cause harm to the VSV?
say you run just your wastegate vac source from your TB vac source (inbetween the TB and VSV) do you guys think that the pulsing action of the VSV could cause a high/low pressure situation and cause the wastegate not to perform properly? Also do you guys think that high boost pressures could cause harm to the VSV?
09-03-2009, 09:17 PM
#59
Former Sponsor
SL Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 401
iv seen it done that way and i myself had done that as well...which worked out quit well however i think this could have been an issue later on. Thanks Don for the info, ill deff keep that in mind.
09-03-2009, 09:22 PM
#60
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arvada, CO
Posts: 7,024
Most mbc have a check valve thus no hissing
Since we run our WG line to the turbo compressor housing, I should probably explain why we do what we do.
There is a reason ALL car manufacturers who build turbocharged cars run the wastegate boost source signal off of the compressor housing or turbo outlet pipe. The compressor outlet provides the strongest and most reliable pneumatic signal available to control the wastegate. I'll just name a few:
MR-2 Turbo
Supra Turbo
Supra TT
300ZX Turbo
300ZX TT
RX-7 Turbo
RX-7 TT
Audi 1.8t
Audi 2.0FSI
VW 1.8t
VW 2.0FSI
Mazdaspeed3
Mazdaspeed6
Mazdaspeed Protege
EVO 1-10
DSM Turbo
WRX
STi
Neon SRT-4
etc, etc, etc
Let me give you a few scenarios here:
Scenario 1:
Your wastegate uses an 8 psi spring.
Now let's say your driving along one day and your intercooler takes a rock hit and loses about 2 psi and your TB coupler starts to crack and leak out another 3 psi.
If you run your boost source from the intake manifold or vacuum block, it will need to generate 8 psi to overcome the WG spring pressure to regulate boost. With the 5 psi loss you now have in your system, your turbocharger will have to work harder and spin faster (less turbocharger efficiency) in order to achieve 8 psi at the manifold in order to crack the wastegate open.
Now if your boost signal was off of your compressor housing, you would immediately notice on your boost gauge that you're only producing about 3 psi, when you should be making 8 psi. Immediately, you will know to look around for the source of your boost leak.
Scenario 2
You decide to add a standard bleeder style manual boost controller to your turbo system to increase the boost a few pounds. You decide to run the boost signal from the intake manifold or vacuum block, well guess what? Your're going to end up with a nasty hissing sound during idle (engine vacuum) caused by the fact that your manual bleeder style boost controller is essentially just that, a bleeder valve.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing you could run a manual bleeder style valve without any problems, because your turbo compressor outlet will produce neither boost nor vacuum at idle.
Scenario 3
You decide to run ALL your vacuum lines to the TB vacuum source with a bazzillion tees or to a vacuum block. You've connected your boost gauge, FIC vacuum line, WMI boost line, BOV line, and boost feedback for the WG all to the same block or vacuum point. All it takes is the failure of one or more vacuum lines or tee fitting to cause an overboost situation.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing, you would have WAY fewer potential failure points and a much lower chance of overboosting.
Hope this helps clarify why we went through the hassle of separating the BOV line from the WG line from the FIC vacuum input line. After all, it's more work for us to tap the compressor housing before we ship out each SS Turbo System, but now everyone can understand why we do what we do.
- Toan
There is a reason ALL car manufacturers who build turbocharged cars run the wastegate boost source signal off of the compressor housing or turbo outlet pipe. The compressor outlet provides the strongest and most reliable pneumatic signal available to control the wastegate. I'll just name a few:
MR-2 Turbo
Supra Turbo
Supra TT
300ZX Turbo
300ZX TT
RX-7 Turbo
RX-7 TT
Audi 1.8t
Audi 2.0FSI
VW 1.8t
VW 2.0FSI
Mazdaspeed3
Mazdaspeed6
Mazdaspeed Protege
EVO 1-10
DSM Turbo
WRX
STi
Neon SRT-4
etc, etc, etc
Let me give you a few scenarios here:
Scenario 1:
Your wastegate uses an 8 psi spring.
Now let's say your driving along one day and your intercooler takes a rock hit and loses about 2 psi and your TB coupler starts to crack and leak out another 3 psi.
If you run your boost source from the intake manifold or vacuum block, it will need to generate 8 psi to overcome the WG spring pressure to regulate boost. With the 5 psi loss you now have in your system, your turbocharger will have to work harder and spin faster (less turbocharger efficiency) in order to achieve 8 psi at the manifold in order to crack the wastegate open.
Now if your boost signal was off of your compressor housing, you would immediately notice on your boost gauge that you're only producing about 3 psi, when you should be making 8 psi. Immediately, you will know to look around for the source of your boost leak.
Scenario 2
You decide to add a standard bleeder style manual boost controller to your turbo system to increase the boost a few pounds. You decide to run the boost signal from the intake manifold or vacuum block, well guess what? Your're going to end up with a nasty hissing sound during idle (engine vacuum) caused by the fact that your manual bleeder style boost controller is essentially just that, a bleeder valve.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing you could run a manual bleeder style valve without any problems, because your turbo compressor outlet will produce neither boost nor vacuum at idle.
Scenario 3
You decide to run ALL your vacuum lines to the TB vacuum source with a bazzillion tees or to a vacuum block. You've connected your boost gauge, FIC vacuum line, WMI boost line, BOV line, and boost feedback for the WG all to the same block or vacuum point. All it takes is the failure of one or more vacuum lines or tee fitting to cause an overboost situation.
Now if you were to run the boost signal off of the compressor housing, you would have WAY fewer potential failure points and a much lower chance of overboosting.
Hope this helps clarify why we went through the hassle of separating the BOV line from the WG line from the FIC vacuum input line. After all, it's more work for us to tap the compressor housing before we ship out each SS Turbo System, but now everyone can understand why we do what we do.
- Toan