Slapped on a turbo.. now what? AEM EMS vs. Rods + Pistons
#21
I do have to agree with Paul here. Spending $3K+ on a motor build and then going ahead and hoping a $300 unit holds my investment down is friggin nutzorz.
That is like some people on the west side over here that spend $1500 on Tein coilovers, spend $3000 on wheels only to put 4 for $100 Walmart tires. Priceless!!!
That is like some people on the west side over here that spend $1500 on Tein coilovers, spend $3000 on wheels only to put 4 for $100 Walmart tires. Priceless!!!
#23
I have to agree with Travis on his earlier point. I think my F/IC is good for at least 400whp, where my stock block is not, so I'd rather have my F/IC an 400whp on a built block then the AEM EMS putting 350 on my stock block, which is not much different then my AEM F/IC putting 350whp on my stock block. I think a standalone is (almost) a waste of money without a stock block behind it.
ScionTG35R is making over 470whp on a built block and running a Greddy unit (can't remember blue or ultimate)
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...439&highlight=
ScionTG35R is making over 470whp on a built block and running a Greddy unit (can't remember blue or ultimate)
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...439&highlight=
#24
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My first thought was get the built motor but I read that the EMS does traction control and I didn't know that. I also have to say that you could get a built motor and ultimate and should be safer and still sell you blue to recover some of the cost.
I have a built motor and blue emanage but just bought an ultimate and sold the blue. I would of gotten the AEM EMS but just don't have the $2K to get it. You may ask why I didn't get it first and that's because it wasn't out before my motor blew.
Either way buy it from Dezod.
I have a built motor and blue emanage but just bought an ultimate and sold the blue. I would of gotten the AEM EMS but just don't have the $2K to get it. You may ask why I didn't get it first and that's because it wasn't out before my motor blew.
Either way buy it from Dezod.
#25
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Yeah, I'm sure some how MAGICALLY now your car will become undriveable if you have stronger piston and rods in it with your GReddy Emanage...
Leslie, Kenny, Rado....Hmm...last time I checked, they all had cars in the 600-750whp range...Thanks for pointing out the OBVIOUS that you wouldn't run an Emanage to handle their elaborate setups! Throwing them into this is comparing Apples to Oranges...LOL.
Unless you have some sick belief that after us normal people build our motors, we all going to somehow Run 9's in the 1/4 mile, or take the Time attack record at Willow Springs Raceway....
Leslie, Kenny, Rado....Hmm...last time I checked, they all had cars in the 600-750whp range...Thanks for pointing out the OBVIOUS that you wouldn't run an Emanage to handle their elaborate setups! Throwing them into this is comparing Apples to Oranges...LOL.
Unless you have some sick belief that after us normal people build our motors, we all going to somehow Run 9's in the 1/4 mile, or take the Time attack record at Willow Springs Raceway....
This man is too funny.
I spoke my piece about control and all. Dan Gardner is not breaking 12s or 9s let alone of anything! He has a road race/TT car. Why does he need that much control then??? He could have used an E-manage or Ultimate or FIC for that matter!
So just to clarify, from the tone of your response....You expect to make reliable 400+whp, which is over 276% power increase over stock?
Dan Gardner? Who said anything about Dan Gardner and road racing? Is the orginal poster Dan Gardner?
So, to clarify, from the tone of your response.....You are saying that the Emanage can't handle 400whp on a built motor tC? Interesting stand point, can you back that up with some data? Again, comparing Apples to Oranges here. 9 out of 10 tC drivers on this forum
1) Are not putting constant abuse to their cars (such as road racing).
and
2) They aren't anywhere near 600whp on their Daily Drivers.
If you want to keep throwing the Leslie, Tran's, Rado's and Gardner's into the mix, then YES I agree with your position. But speaking from the position of what makes up 95% of the tC's in the F/I section (daily drivers, not abusive, that see the drag strip mostly if they are doing any racing), then I'm going built motor first than Standalone.
#27
Originally Posted by Mr_Meaty
Um...ScionGT35R is pushing over 475 with the Greddy.
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
ScionGT35R has that Magical MOJO...since you know, according to Paul, 400whp on a built block and the GReddy stuff is not possible.
This arguement is pretty stupid really. It's like saying, should I get a TRD Limited Slip, or a Set of Slicks. Yet both in combination would be the ideal/optimum solution.
#28
Yeah, completely apples to oranges, liek saying should I get a Vette or a Lexus...just cause they cost the same does not make them good comparisons
...however, i think this is a VERY legitimate question, as we all will come to the point where we consider our next mod, and we have $3000 saved up, and we have to decide on built block or AEM EMS (or hydra). I want both, but I want the built block FIRST.
...however, i think this is a VERY legitimate question, as we all will come to the point where we consider our next mod, and we have $3000 saved up, and we have to decide on built block or AEM EMS (or hydra). I want both, but I want the built block FIRST.
#31
i would take the built block too.
Since you can begin enjoying 400 HP.
and later on upgrade to another EMS to get your full potential.
2 set of good rubber should do the Job in my opinion.
I would not like to have a full EMS lot's of $$$ invested and still lose by someone with an E-manage tuned TC doing 400 Ponies.
AMEN !!!
Since you can begin enjoying 400 HP.
and later on upgrade to another EMS to get your full potential.
2 set of good rubber should do the Job in my opinion.
I would not like to have a full EMS lot's of $$$ invested and still lose by someone with an E-manage tuned TC doing 400 Ponies.
AMEN !!!
#32
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Originally Posted by Mr_Meaty
Um...ScionGT35R is pushing over 475 with the Greddy.
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
#33
Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Dan Gardner? Who said anything about Dan Gardner and road racing? Is the orginal poster Dan Gardner?
So, to clarify, from the tone of your response.....You are saying that the Emanage can't handle 400whp on a built motor tC? Interesting stand point, can you back that up with some data? Again, comparing Apples to Oranges here. 9 out of 10 tC drivers on this forum
Don, last season was making around 200whp ALL MOTOR on EMS. So, what is to say about that? He is part throttle a ton on the track, and is constantly needing 100% control over the car to give him the edge. I guess THAT was my point., but you failed to catch it yet again. He won 1st place in PTE and TTE for NASA last year, and is competing in Grand AM too this season.
Power levels and piggybacks are closely related. There are limitations of control that do occur with piggybacks and for a softly driven 50-100whp, you can get away with using a piggyback. WOT is also great with a piggyback too. The issue at hand is how often do you drive WOT or softly? Not much! You drive that 20%-60% throttle point, 90% of the time, which is where control with MOST piggys fails on the tC.
As I recall, you washed your rings finally from your piggy tune. Did you ever repair the car Travis?
Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Originally Posted by Mr_Meaty
Um...ScionGT35R is pushing over 475 with the Greddy.
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
ScionGT35R has that Magical MOJO...since you know, according to Paul, 400whp on a built block and the GReddy stuff is not possible.
This arguement is pretty stupid really. It's like saying, should I get a TRD Limited Slip, or a Set of Slicks. Yet both in combination would be the ideal/optimum solution.
Can and will he have driven it for months and months, abusing it on the street to have it hold up with the e-manage and not wash a ring or deform a rod........
The EMS is 100% user definable and the only party to blame is the customer or engine builder for failure. The tuner only pushes it as far as the customer lets him.
#35
Originally Posted by Danger_Darren
Since when does installing pistons and rods cost $2000. I could do that myself in a weekend.
I would still probably choose standalone engine management though. Piggybacks only go so far.
I would still probably choose standalone engine management though. Piggybacks only go so far.
#36
Originally Posted by Enrique_Dezod
I do have to agree with Paul here. Spending $3K+ on a motor build and then going ahead and hoping a $300 unit holds my investment down is friggin nutzorz.
That is like some people on the west side over here that spend $1500 on Tein coilovers, spend $3000 on wheels only to put 4 for $100 Walmart tires. Priceless!!!
That is like some people on the west side over here that spend $1500 on Tein coilovers, spend $3000 on wheels only to put 4 for $100 Walmart tires. Priceless!!!
Werd. Those cats over there are a trip.
#37
take it from someone who did option #1 first. GO WITH OPTION #2!!!!!!!!!
granted you can make 400 at the wheels with the e-manage. however, give it a week or two and that number will drop significantly. the e-manage gets _____ slaped by the cars ecu constantly. 2nd to the exauhst manifold/ turbo combo. the ems is the corner stone of your turbo kit. that is how you will make the power. having a built motor, and a crappy e-manage, is like having a footlong weiner and not being able to get hard.
granted you can make 400 at the wheels with the e-manage. however, give it a week or two and that number will drop significantly. the e-manage gets _____ slaped by the cars ecu constantly. 2nd to the exauhst manifold/ turbo combo. the ems is the corner stone of your turbo kit. that is how you will make the power. having a built motor, and a crappy e-manage, is like having a footlong weiner and not being able to get hard.
#38
Originally Posted by brett561tc
take it from someone who did option #1 first. GO WITH OPTION #2!!!!!!!!!
granted you can make 400 at the wheels with the e-manage. however, give it a week or two and that number will drop significantly. the e-manage gets biscuit slaped by the cars ecu constantly. 2nd to the exauhst manifold/ turbo combo. the ems is the corner stone of your turbo kit. that is how you will make the power. having a built motor, and a crappy e-manage, is like having a footlong weiner and not being able to get hard.
granted you can make 400 at the wheels with the e-manage. however, give it a week or two and that number will drop significantly. the e-manage gets biscuit slaped by the cars ecu constantly. 2nd to the exauhst manifold/ turbo combo. the ems is the corner stone of your turbo kit. that is how you will make the power. having a built motor, and a crappy e-manage, is like having a footlong weiner and not being able to get hard.
#39
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Dan Gardner? Who said anything about Dan Gardner and road racing? Is the orginal poster Dan Gardner?
So, to clarify, from the tone of your response.....You are saying that the Emanage can't handle 400whp on a built motor tC? Interesting stand point, can you back that up with some data? Again, comparing Apples to Oranges here. 9 out of 10 tC drivers on this forum
Don, last season was making around 200whp ALL MOTOR on EMS. So, what is to say about that? He is part throttle a ton on the track, and is constantly needing 100% control over the car to give him the edge. I guess THAT was my point., but you failed to catch it yet again. He won 1st place in PTE and TTE for NASA last year, and is competing in Grand AM too this season.
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Power levels and piggybacks are closely related. There are limitations of control that do occur with piggybacks and for a softly driven 50-100whp, you can get away with using a piggyback. WOT is also great with a piggyback too. The issue at hand is how often do you drive WOT or softly? Not much! You drive that 20%-60% throttle point, 90% of the time, which is where control with MOST piggys fails on the tC.
As I recall, you washed your rings finally from your piggy tune. Did you ever repair the car Travis?
As I recall, you washed your rings finally from your piggy tune. Did you ever repair the car Travis?
Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke
Originally Posted by Mr_Meaty
Um...ScionGT35R is pushing over 475 with the Greddy.
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
etsnet...why did you get the ultimate instead of the AEM F/IC piggyback?
ScionGT35R has that Magical MOJO...since you know, according to Paul, 400whp on a built block and the GReddy stuff is not possible.
This arguement is pretty stupid really. It's like saying, should I get a TRD Limited Slip, or a Set of Slicks. Yet both in combination would be the ideal/optimum solution.
Can and will he have driven it for months and months, abusing it on the street to have it hold up with the e-manage and not wash a ring or deform a rod........
The EMS is 100% user definable and the only party to blame is the customer or engine builder for failure. The tuner only pushes it as far as the customer lets him.[/quote]
Wow...so let me make sure I have this correct, seeing as how I'm Missing a lot....lol...so, if a ring washes out, or a rod is deformed (Granted we are talking about a Built block here), it's the fault of the Emanage. But on a STOCK block with AEM standalone, you are somehow bullet proof just because you have a standalone?
Yeah, I'm going to have to say I disagree.
You seem to keep forgetting that we are comparing
A) Built Block 2az with Emanage
and
B) Stock Block 2az with AEM
I'm sorry, I fail to see how option B is a Bullet proof option over option A. And I fail to see how Emanage is So MONUMENTALLY erroneous that it's going to wash out aftermarket piston rings or deform (Stronger that stock) rods.
#40
Originally Posted by recliner15
Originally Posted by brett561tc
take it from someone who did option #1 first. GO WITH OPTION #2!!!!!!!!!
granted you can make 400 at the wheels with the e-manage. however, give it a week or two and that number will drop significantly. the e-manage gets biscuit slaped by the cars ecu constantly. 2nd to the exauhst manifold/ turbo combo. the ems is the corner stone of your turbo kit. that is how you will make the power. having a built motor, and a crappy e-manage, is like having a footlong weiner and not being able to get hard.
granted you can make 400 at the wheels with the e-manage. however, give it a week or two and that number will drop significantly. the e-manage gets biscuit slaped by the cars ecu constantly. 2nd to the exauhst manifold/ turbo combo. the ems is the corner stone of your turbo kit. that is how you will make the power. having a built motor, and a crappy e-manage, is like having a footlong weiner and not being able to get hard.
So retune it... As mentioned though, a standalone should be bought generally at the same time. But if I had to choose one "before" the other, then I choose built motor first.
If having to retune it ever so often due to the ecu slapping around the emanage is the biggest problem, it's not big enough to make me want to go standalone before built motor. Especially if you are tuning your own ride, or get discounts from a tuner to tune your ride.
But hey, the OP has the information, it's all about making a decision now.