rhythmnsmoke

I guess you must missed the part that I've been running it for over a year...

Simplyscion

you just made my day travis
jk

N-Dawg

Yeah, but you've been running emanage, something I wasn't planning on doing, but now I think it's a must

03DSM-RSX

dont need a dyno session?? i guess you never really do any sort of REAL tuning right? you need to know how much timing to advance/retard on the dyno. you do not know whether advancing it will make anymore power or actually hurt HP.


yes, i'm implying that your motor's reliability will be on the edge. Granted you may havea solid tune, but you cant expect it to run at that efficiency forever. Reliability=more than just a year, buddy. Try 3+years, 30k+miles, passing compression test with flying colors, go without any check engine lights, etc

why would it cost more? b/c its better maybe?? yes, we all know it costs more and its better.

dude, i never had a problem with my rsx. I have Hondata Kpro, a full standalone system. Oh, and i made my own circuit board for it to work on my RSX auto. Which is why i'm the only automatic rsx running the Kpro system. Kpro is the reason why the K-series are so easy to tune and modify without worries of reliablity. In an R&D project i did a couple years ago, it was testing the effectiveness of piggyback systems on newer OBDII cars (not just Honda-specific) to see if they are still great for today's applications. The results did not come out so great. Engine management and its sensors all require the same input/output signals to run. i push over 17psi on my stock block just fine. Found out where this ____ Greddy turbo stops making power. Got a lot of midrange from it. Lets try 28psi on a GT35R on a stock block. You really believe your motor can hold that with a basic emanage? (yes, no ones gona do it, but its an example)

this is where i know you havent seen or messed with an emanage ultimate parameter screen. check it out, it has NOTHING to do with the traditional automatic transmission.


Peteyd was ZPI's first wasnt he? He had direct connections with ZPI. If they knew it'd work better, why did they not suggest it for his setup?? So much for ZPI right?

this comment was geared towards the guy who said he wanted to boost, but stay under the costs of higher-end cars. it was not to you.

if your wastegate line comes off and you overboost, is that your tune's fault? I'm only trying to suggest whats best in everyone's interest in their concern for reliability. supposedly you have close ties with your tuner correct? then you must datalog and work out kinks here and there in your tune quite often. Other members may not have that benefit.

03DSM-RSX

when you are cruising/part-throttle (out of boost), your ecu is running in "closed loop". A/F will automatically adjusted to run 14.7 ratio. In WOT (open loop), this is where the emanage fuel maps come into play.

tuning is more than just messing with air and fuel. you have tons of other sensors/readings you need to compensate for. Engine knock, ignition timing in relation to MAF/MAP values, ECT, IAT, etc etc.

its silly to think you can get by with just a/f tuning. it wont last. rythmsmoke, come back in a couple years and rub it in my face please. i would LOVE to be wrong about emanage blue b/c it'll provide a cheap, yet SOLID solution to tuning. but in reality, it just wont happen.

rhythmnsmoke

You know I'm known for smoking people, not my tunning ability.... But I'll tune when I get around to it, you know I have my own career, this is just a hobby.

rhythmnsmoke

REAL tuning? According to who, you? Most of the racers in my community Street tune their rides. Ours is and always has been street tuned as well. If you put your car on the dyno and tune it, and ours is street tuned, and I walk your dyno tuned car, what difference does it make huh....


We have the same amount of mileage, but in less years bro.. We drive all over the place. CEL light...meey, doesn't bother me or the car. Pretty common in the tC F/I section to have one.


Why did you repeat what I just said?


I think you are misunderstanding. Here let me break it down for you....95% of the tC's on here are around 300hp. Emanage works for that. When they decided to go over 300, then I'm sure they will upgrade. So you 28psi on a GT35R situation wouldn't even be thought of on here. Anyone smart enough to run that high and that turbo, WILL more than likely have something different than the Blue Box....That's Common Sense. But are we talking about 28 PSI GT35R cars here? Nope. We are talking about T3/T4's, 16G's, 18G's, with usually no more than 10 PSI on them.



Nope, sorry dude. PeteyD was NOT the first. ScionDad was the first. And if I'm not mistaken, he ran the Blue Box on an AUTO boosted ZPI powered tC just fine. So, So much for ZPI right?


I still love that comment though....


what does that have to do with running the Blue Box vs. running the Ultimate? Does the Ultimate prevent you wagstegate line from coming off and you overboosting or something?

03DSM-RSX

tuning on the street is different from the dyno. you are tuning blind on the street. like i said, you need a dyno to figure out if your adjustments are making power or making you lose power. ie. ignition advance/retard. street tuning is to make your a/f's in the safe range, but also to see if knock occurs. Real car "tuners" know this to be a fact. ask anyone, even ZPI. racers do not know jack ____ at times. I am not talking about a car who's tuned on street vs. dyno racing head to head. If you want to put it that way heres an example:

2 scion tc's with the same exact setup, same emanage ultimate. one gets street tuned, and one dyno tuned. Hands down, the dyno tuned will have the edge and higher numbers.

The whole point of tuning is not to see who walks who in a race, its to make sure your car is running at optimal power given the conditions it sees. Your CEL sucks, and to others who are worried about passing inspection, CEL will have a problems. Also, having the CEL on all the time prevents you from knowing other problems that may be occuring because you think its the same CEL. A CEL can contain more than one error codes. My bro's car does not have a CEL even without a cat. I know most here dont run cats anyways, but i'd suggest to bypass that somehow. (i'm currently working on a way to permanently rid of the secondary o2 and bypass it without causing a CEL for all OBD2 cars)

well, actually, i have 65k miles on mine

lol i dont know

you mean 95% of the turbo'd tc's? but yes, thats the same point i was trying make. i wanted to see if you still believed the blue box can handle that sort abuse.

no, you're the one that stated he NEEDED emanage ultimate. sciondad runs fine with blue. so there ya go. the point i was trying to make that it didnt matter which one he used and as it doesnt control the trans like you said it does.


word, i've gotten it plenty myself and i see it all types of car owners get it too. from the civics to the lexus's.


overboost protection, a nifty feature in emanage ultimate that in case that should happen, it'll cut you off if it sees psi out of its set range range.

Say you set overboost to cut off at 10.1psi. your boost controller is set 10psi daily. you're at a car show or something, you look away, someone turns the **** of your BC up to ____ with you. You drive home, see a riced out rsx and wana spank it. You gun it, boost climbs, but the moment where the emanage sees the boost level go past your set 10psi, it will cut the engine until you're back under 10.1psi, therefore preventing you from blowing your motor. You go home safely and have your motor intact and go under the hood to inspect why it was overboosting.

lol, i dont even know what exactly we are "arguing" about. you know emanage ultimate is the better option. but i guess the point i'm trying to make is that if there is the best item out there, get it, b/c it'll be worth it in the end. Also, you should not be moddig on a budget anyways and should have backup funds in case something breaks.

Just like my hard-learned example. i bought the stinkin Greddy kit thinking it'll be sufficient for my needs. but once boosted, i kept wanting more. i ended maxing out the turbo, and cant get anymore HP. I ended up spending a bit more money to try and upgrade its components. And in the end, it totaled to be about, if not more, than the price of the best turbo setup for the K-series, Full-Race. With FR, i could've hit 400whp with ease and lower boost. now i gota depend on nitrous with it.

hmmm.....i wonder if Full-Race will start making setups for the tC....that'd be the pimpest setup....

03DSM-RSX

oh ____.....nevermind....

Full-Race is making a setup for the Scion tC. oh snap!
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/ind...?cPath=839_887

318_tC

full race has had that up for a looooooooong time....

t1 told blue was ____ and if ne thing atleast get ultimate...so i did

rhythmnsmoke

yeah, that's sorta old news. Brian is getting one of those soon.

rhythmnsmoke

Yes, I know Street tune is different. That don't make it faster just because you tunned on the dyno.. There are plenty of cars on here that have dyno tunes. Our tC has never seen a tune on the dyno in ALL of it's boosted life. Does that mean I'm slower than the ones that were dyno tunned....hmmm.... Call me crazy if you wish, but a little tid bit of info. Our car was tunned with NO wideband, and ran for oh about 8 months with racing every weekend. Only just recently has it been Street Tuned with a Wideband, and Now is running better than ever. So, how about that ZPI huh? Call is sheer luck or whatever, but dyno tunning is not a sure fire way that you car WON'T blow up. Sure, if I was dyno tunned, I would be even more powerful. But if it aint broke, don't fix it.


I have been through inspections. And came out with a pass. My CEL doesn't suck to me. Actually, car felt better with one on, than with it off. Our car is basically a rolling contradiction to what you are saying.


I'm already aware of that. Car runs fine with the CEL, and it's the same CEL as always. I've had it scanned more than once you know.

How often do you full-out race it? Care to share some victory stories over in the Autosports section?

Naw man, I'm not a stupid noob kid. And yes, 95% of the turbo tC's, what else would I be talking about....lol. Of course when you want to go bigger than 300whp, I would recommend a more robust tunning solution. But this isn't the case here, the original poster is not building a Street Terror. Therefore, no need to go off on these tangents by telling him he needs an Uber tunning solution, when the Blue box will get the job done.

HUH? I thought this debate started when you started slamming the Blue Box? You are going to have to find and quote me where I said he NEEDED the Ultimate?


But there is a particular reason why the Auto guys are using the Ultimate vs. the Blue Box, and I could have sworn it had something to do with the Tranny. Dunno....maybe I got it wrong, but it's not a coincidence they are for the most part using the Ultimate.



That's good. Haven't seen to many OVERBoosting blown tC's on here though. GReddy had that problem when they first came out, because of faulty WG's. Maybe they could have used that option at the time......

03DSM-RSX

wow, i surely can see now that i'm not talking to one knowledgeable enough to know how important a tune is. Do you really think ZPI support your statements thus far? Are you ZPI's spokesman? i want to hear from them to see if you're actually speaking for them and they stand by all of your statements. If so, then i totally look down on them as a tuner company.

did you not read? i never stated who was faster than who, thats not the point of tuning. I guess you did not understand the part about ignition tuning right? I can honestly say that you wont get a problem-free car. If problems arise, i doubt you'll post it on here.

About my racing? I use track this ____ every other month or so. Hence why i have a fully built automatic race transmission from IPT to take the abuse. But lately, i havent done it for the past month and 1/2 due to school load and med school deadlines. Why does it matter to you? i beat the 13 sec domestics at the local track. I'm happy with that. I have some vids too if you'd like when i was on low boost.

"omg i race this and that every week"- you sound like a ricer and an immature kid to me and how you abuse a car by showing your driving habits.

theres your quote. you did mention that Peteyd needed it, an all autos too. but you come around and say that sciondad is running blue just fine.

Do you really think every other member can pass inspections with a CEL like you do? An OBD2 testing inspector sees a CEL and automatically fails you. The connect the ODB2 diagnostic machine to your car and RECORD the trouble codes down, and checks readiness codes the same time. If you fail, it goes into your vehicle's VIN history.

i'm done on this thread. You do not seem experienced/knowledgeable enough to know the importance basics of engine dynamics and tuning to even creating an argument that makes sense. Not that everyone does but they SHOULD understand the least bit thats its the sole thing running their car.

If you really believe i am speaking out of my ___, then i want you to get your car tuner in here and tell him to prove my statements to be wrong.

rhythmnsmoke

I speak for myself. And are you seriously trying to say that a car that has been dyno tuned will NEVER blow up....if so, then I can see now I'M not talking to one knowledgeable enough to know how important a tune is.

I have never posted an engine related problem on here....because I haven't had one.... Infact, I have had more problems with my tranny than ANY other part of the car. I've had a poor tune one time due to a schedule conflict, but didn't cause anything to fail, just had to wait till Kenny got back for a retune.

I asked because I'm not sure how many people on here beat on their cars constantly as I do to ours. It seems that your comments are implying that our car is a "ticking time bomb", when it's rather contradictory to what you have said, about what should and could happen. You know, when it does, you will be the first person to know....umm k.


It's a testament to durability of our car, it's turbo kit, and the tune that's placed on it. Can't help it if I don't drive like grandma when I'm in it. Ricer....right..

omg! talk about short attention spans. that's totally NOT what that statement was directed for. did you read my previous post. I told you that a lot of the Auto guys were running the Ultimate for a particular reason, and I thought that reason was because of something to do with the Auto trannys shifting points.....geesh.. I told you that I can't remember 100% what is drawing the Auto guys to the Ultimate, but I know that it's more common with the Auto guys than it is with the manual. And stop playing like I'm the one that's PRO Ultimate. I was saying the Blue box was fine, and you come into the thread with the..."you should run Ultimate, blue box sucks".

YEP....they did just that very thing to our car too. But I got around that. And it's not documented yet, cause there are not enough cases on wether or not the Ultimate will still throw a CEL with the tC. There just isn't enough testing going on yet.


Dude, your post are so twisting of what I've said, that I've even forgot what you were trying to prove? That a dyno tune is better than a street tune?.....umm...If I recalled, I said that yeah, you are going to get the #'s, but I added that it doesn't mean you will NEVER blow up. And what was your other point? That the Ultimate was better than the Blue box....umm...yeah, I think I agreed on that too, but added that it doesn't mean the Blue box was crappy when it's not. So, what point are you trying to make that I missed?

rhythmnsmoke

This was your VERY first post on the first page.

And all I told you after that was that the Blue box IS reliable, can provide longevity and saftey for the motor. And used our car as an example. And now it's turned into this big-drawn out-ordeal.

03DSM-RSX

i still stick to the FACT that emanage blue is not the best option for reliability and safety. i've given the reasons with examples, ie. overboost protection, a/f target, etc. The only thing you can say is that your car is an example and several others of your "car crew", but no real argument regarding the tuning aspect of the blue box's parameters to show me that it can ensure safety. Basically, it rests all in on how good the tune is. If your tune is poop, you're out of luck with blue box.

People cannot simply depend on other tuners to make it safe as your tune is with blue box. That is why the Ultimate has extra safety lines in case the tuner does poop on the tune.

MANY tuners alike will agree that the emanage blue box is NOT the prefered tuning device. Even 318_tC said that himself. Heck, tuners want the safety nets themselves so they dont ____ up.

I guess in blue box's case, street tuning is should be no different from dyno tuning b/c you cant tune ignition timing anyways LOL. Now if you had the option of ignition tuning, then DYNO is the way to go. The thing about street tuning, you're not in controlled environment and left to do it in the streets, which is not safe if you're in moderately populated areas.

here's something i wrote a while back, and inform yourself about the blue box and its limited capabilities.

Piggy Back controllers (primarily SAFC/VAFC, Emanage Blue, etc) allow stock ECUs to do things that they normally can't do, like run larger injectors or deal with boost. Remember that piggyback controllers work by altering sensor signals before they get to the ECU.

Most of the time, the primary signal being messed with is the MAP/MAF Sensor. This is critically important in a Speed Density car. The Map/Maf Sensor is used by the ECU to guess how much air is going into the car, and therefore how much fuel to supply in order to match airflow. When you "lean" out a car with an AFC, you are simply decreasing the Map/Maf Sensor signal - the ECU responds to the decrease in manifold pressure by supplying less fuel. When you "richen" a car with an AFC, you are simply increasing the Map Sensor signal - the ECU responds to the increase in manifold pressure by supplying less fuel.

The change in fueling happens for a reason: if you look at a fuel table, Map/maf Sensor values correspond with columns. When you increase or decrease the signal from the Map/maf Sensor, you are simply making the ECU use a different column than it originally would have used. (see Understanding Maps/mafs if you need some help understanding reading Fuel and Ign tables)

But wait, isn't the Map/maf Sensor used for determining ignition requirements too? When you "lean" out a car with a Piggy Back, you also in all likelyhood advanced timing. When you "richen" a car with a Piggy Back, you also in all likelyhood retarded timing. Look at trends horizontally (as MAP/MAF changes) in an ignition table, and you will see why this happens. This helps explain why so many boosted cars running on the "AFC hack" have issues due to excessive ignition advance.

The bottom line: Piggy Back Controllers suck because you cannot independently adjust fuel and ignition. Any changes to fueling will produce a change in ignition too, and often this is undesirable. However, with the new release of Emanage Ultimate, which allows ignition tuning, we can see a whole new ballgame and see that its the most sound solution for a piggyback option. Its ALMOST like a standalone system.

rhythmnsmoke

tCduck

^^^.....


It was long BUT there was a lot of great info there to. I will now most likely buy the ultamate for a ZPI stage 0 that I plan on getting. I want to thank both of you for arguing for so long, I got a lot of great information out of it.

Now, my eyes burn from reading all of that in the last 15 minutes. So Im going to go look at the stage 0 I want to buy and read more about the Emanage and the Emanage Ultimate.

Thanks again for all the great info.

tCduck

Also RSX guy has a good point about your tune...you get a great tune at ZPI, where I live its going to be hard to find a tuner who know his ___ from his elbow when it comes to tuning my car if I had the blue box so hopefully the Ultimate will make that easier.

jwaggz82

iTrader: (1)

I think thats a good place to start ...just dont be foolish and turn up the boost till you get a fmic.