Originally Posted by aen

i'm not skimping on the 150 bucks haha, it's justified and i will buy it...i'm just running low on the dough at the moment.

Originally Posted by sleepermod

You will need a wideband monitor + boost guage + scantool to road tune.

Generally the steps involved are as below :

1) Set the boost to your desired level (ie. 10psi)

2) Use scan tool to observe when the ecu goes close>open loop and when open>closed loop decceleration.

3) Tune vacuum regions 1st (at idle 22inHg to 0inHg, 0 being atmospheric absolute 14.5psi)

4) Look at the scan tool to see your Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) and Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT). In vacuum region you will need to tune STFT as close as possible to 0.0%. The tolerance of the Toyota ECU allows maybe 3% max for control authority. Cross over this threshold and boom! you lose control and the whole tune map gets off-ish. Keep tuning the vacuum region till you consistently get to 0.0% on the map. Test by pulling out the EFI fuses in your main fuse box in the engine bay. Reset the stock ecu (this erases the temporary memory of the stored fuel trims) and test your map.

STFT and LTFT is key to a successful running car that performs consisitently 24/7. The reason why e-manage users report overriding after a period of time is as explained above...... The STFT and LTFT were never tuned properly and running in parallel with the piggyback, thats why control authority was lost and the STOCK ecu takes over! Some users then condemn the product and deem it as poop. Truth be told, Greedy is to blame for not telling consumers HOW to tune correctly not that the product is poop (Now the secret is out....)

5) After above is done, tune boosted region 1psi at a time (you need a co-driver with a steady feet to hold the tuning pressure points as shown on laptop screen)

6) Look at your AFR when doing (5) you will want to go for 12.5-13.0 for partial throttle tune (close loop) and 11.5-12.0 for WOT (open loop)

7) After fuel map is tuned, reset the ecu by pulling the EFI fuses in the engine bay to reset the ecu memory. Test tuned map again.

Lastly is the ignition timing map, again use the scan tool to observe timing advance for your whole tuned map. Where you see retardation of the timing on your scan tool, note where this is on the tune map, reduce by 1 degree at a time till it no longer retards while building up boost.

Generally boosted engines do not like less than 20 degrees ign. timing. The general rule of reducing 1 degree timing for every 1 psi of boost is ridiculous (At least for me) I do not retard more than 2 degrees on all/any tuned points, the car pulls hard with very good AFR for the whole range. I think this maybe due to the variable camshaft timing that influences the ign. timing

Engines tend to advance its timing as much as possible till it sees knock, thats when it retards timing to prevent unnecessary damage. But in our modern Toyota engines (and others), the engine does not monitor knock beyond 3300rpm. This is mainly due to the "false" knock created from noisy valve tappets during high revs and progressively heavier loads. The piezotronic sensor located at the back of our engine block is unable to differentiate "irrelevant" noise, therefore engine knock is not monitored anything above this set threshold. You will need to pay more attention to the ign. timing retard in the boosted regions beyond 3k rpm So look at your scan tool when tuning beyond 3k rpm.

After all is done, you will have a reliable bruiser that is daily driven

Boost on Bro

Originally Posted by aen

what if i have a long stretch of road that nobody drives on....and i'm not the driver.

Originally Posted by aen

what does the timing map do exactly?

Originally Posted by Guru

This is not a bad start. A few things. You do NOT want to start off with boost set to what you want. You want to start at the lowest boost possible by your wastegate (ie. the spring pressure). As for timing that is quite incorrect. A big turbo EVO will rarely run more than 20 degrees of timing. STi's run maybe 24-25 degrees up top max and often less than that. Same goes for a TC which has similar timing curves. I run 16 degrees max on mildmodtc's car and maybe 18-19 degrees on Turbonetics kit. That is at redline of course. Keep in mind that the power levels on these cars are a bit higher than your average Tc and high timing can be run at lower boost pressures or with smaller turbos safely. The GT35RSS that mildmodtc is running is very large and can not run less than 10 PSI so I keep max timing at 16 degrees at that level. Also different turbos want differen't things. GT Turbos like less timing and a bit leaner mixture than other turbos. Keep in mind that I use a Hydra EMS on all these cars because don't feel comfortable running that much power on a piggyback, any piggyback. The open loop and closed loop control is invaluable as is the complete control over closed loop targeting and of course your ignition mapping control. short and long term fuel trim tuning is of course extremely important for you guys running stock ECU still. People think a wideband is all you need butu i'd say a wideband and a good OBD II scanner not to mention a codriver. One thing you can NOT tune on the street is the VVTi. Cam advance tuning can only be setup properly on a dyno and I prefer a sensitive to small changes dyno like a Dynapack dyno myself.

Originally Posted by tcengel

One important thing about tuning for yourself.
Your car is most likely to detonate at torque peak. Your actually safest if you pull timing around 3500-4500rpms and then steadily ramp it up towards redline. Too much advance at torque peak will destroy your motor. I would not ignore your timing map, to me it's more important than your fuel map.

Originally Posted by sleepermod

I agree on some points Guru. I used 20 degrees for generalisation purposes as you have pointed out on the rexes. Currently for my car, ign. timing range from 12.5 to 17.0, WOT and redline sees 15 degrees. You are right to mention on that.

I don't absolutely agree on the base set boost though, matter of preference again. This is bearing in mind I'm running a TD05H-16g, not a GT28RS. The boost requirements will be different for both units, you are right.

aen runs the T-series Garrett w journal bearings CHRA. I assume the safe limits to enjoy you car off the box would be 9psi, 7psi seems safe but forgettable since you would crave for more after 2 weeks.

My point : Initially I ran boost off the WG setting (5.8psi) it spikes to 6.1psi and then settles at 5.6psi thereabouts at WOT. I then tune my map carefully and religiously, everthings great. 12.5AFR close loop and 11.5 WOT.

Next I felt I could bring it up more to 9psi using the AEM Tru-Boost using duty cycle + WG crack pressure. Next thing I knew I had to retune all boosted portions again... because the close loop was lean again and WOT lean as well. Why, its because the raised boost pressure would have "transmigrated" to another tuning cell since the ceiling has been raised from 6psi to 9psi. This means the earlier cell tuned would be "bypassed" and no longer applies. The cell now showing boost maybe lean or not having enough fuel.

My piggyback map has 976 tuning cell points per map. The consolation is that not all cells needs to be changed, only those highlighted by the cursor indication where boost is detected.

I don't think I should be tuning too often, as I said earlier, research users, determine the best boost for your needs and configuration, tune on that and refine it. The end.

Step by step boost incremental adjustments takes up a fair bit of time and its sometimes hard to coordinate a co-driver to help you out on a road tune when you need one.

Yes, the HYDRA ems is promoted to the Rex and Evo owners as THE final solution for their needs. It is a good system I agree somewhat, just that not all can afford or want to tune standalones for a duration of time to perfect it. I use a piggyback, so does a lot of forum members using a variety of products. AEM ems users are like one or none and you are the other rare user utilising a standalone. The critical mass out there points towards piggybacks running parallel to stock ecu. The question here is which is best for the Toyota platform w/o hiccups + high costs + tunability.

If money and time were not considerations, Motec, Autronic, AEM, Hydra, HKSV-Pro would have been the way to go for max power and max reliability

Having said, good info from Guru to help aen further understand tuning for his coming Christmas Crusher

Originally Posted by Guru

You have to set up your graphs to take advantage of the range of boost (or MAF reading) you are using. Now if you are running lean when you raise boost and you say it is because you are going to the next cell down (or across) then obviously you did not fill in the sections of the graph very well. Whatever you filled in for the lower boost or MAF cells you have to increase them porportionally in the higher cells as obviously you will hit some of those as you turn up boost. Furthermore you want extra fuel added to the higher limit cells that you don't plan on hitting just in case you run into an overboost condition. This gives you a bit of margin so that if you do overboost it will run rich. This is how I have done countless cars and is not only safer but all the lower cells will be better dialed in as well in case a customer needs to run two different boost settings (something I often do with AVCR's to improve traction). That way it is good AF mixture both at 6 PSi and at 10 PSi. Yes of course it takes more time but it is the only way to assure that the correct AF mixtures and timing will be set for varying boost pressures up to your limitations.
As for the Hydra it is heavily promoted due to it's safety and tuning capabilities. No other standalone setup is available as a plug and play solution for the Tc and setting it up is actually not bad compared to some of the other standalones you mentioned. It is THE best solution in terms of safety, reliability, tunability and allows you to eliminate the MAF sensor, a big plus for you big turbo guys who want to run 4 or 5 inch inlets. Drivability is also better than any piggyback due to the fact that you have complete control over closed and open loop modes and can blend the timing and fuel maps between the two settings much better than any piggyback. Lastly, it too does fuel trims automatically with both short and long term adjustments but unlike the stock ECU, this will not affect your WOT settings. The only reason more people do not use it is cost. That is the only place that a piggyback may be attractive to the consumer. Other than that, a standalone is the way to go. I don't think anyone can really argue that.

Originally Posted by sleepermod

The surrounding cells around the previous tuned points were adequately taken care of just in case like you said, turn up the boost. But as mentioned later in the para, there would be limitations with a piggyback's interface as compared to a standalone since we are running parallel with the stock ecu.

We try to work in unison with the ecu embedded program, not against it. The ecu will win all the time.

Standalone as implied takes over the totallity of the engine management, ie. cold start, idle etc.... therefore all factory feedback sensors are wired to the unit and you tweak from there how you want to run the motor. Total freedom to do what you want. The possibilities to what you can do is practically endless like anti-lag, launch control, close loop boost, speed density (MAF>MAP), autotune (requires wideband,optional), fuel trim compensation..... in short, the works

This is not possible with piggybacks, no question about it. I understand your preference for standalone and the total solution it offers, its the best out there for control but its the cost that prevents mass ownership as compared to piggybacks. Its $400 vs $2000 (wideband included). The answer is quite obvious. You can't get gold for the price of copper.

Anyways we are here to offer aen our comments for him to pick up tuning ideas or know-how if he has any doubts or questions regarding his upcoming installation. This was never a ____ing match to argue about which 3rd party control is more superior. Standalone obviously wins no matter which brand you choose. Just need to look out for the differing functions that appeals to you or specific functions to suit your mod needs.

Originally Posted by Guru

I agree 100%. The only point being that if the cell son the map are not the problem (sorry but that is how I read your post) and the ECU is fighting you than all the more reason to remove the stock ECU from the equation. We all can't afford $1900 standalone setups so that being said for using a piggyback what you first mentioned in keeping the fuel trims close to 0 is the way to keep the changes form affecting your WOT map. Now that being said if that is done you shoudl have no problem starting at a lower boost pressure and then working your way up slowly to more safely setup the fuel map instead of setting it to desired boost like you said in your first reply. Also you may not target the same AF mixtures at different boost pressure thus the other reason you want to do this. I run as lean as 12.5:1 at 5-6 PSI on certain kits and gradually richen it up as we go up in boost and approach the 93 octane limit. This not only nets better power at lower boost pressures and conserves fuel consumption but also makes for a smoother transition between lower and higher boost pressures and aids drivabilty.