Stefan_TC

Turbos are very efficient for two reasons: why, like I said, they use energy that woudl otherwise be wasted so they IMPROVE engine's efficiency.... The second they alllow to increase engine's output with a minimal inrease to the weight of the powertrain...
Yes, focur cylinder engine with turbo, intercooler, wastegate, bypas walve that makes 500-700HP (typical EVOs running in SCCA circuit) weigh much less then a normally aspirated engine of similar output would....

Please do not mention any HONDA contraption claiming to make 200 out of 2.0L or 300 out of 3.0L... Honda/Acura conveniently forgets to mention that this output is available at insanely high RPM range... Totally useless. Turbos give a lot of HP and torque at relatively low RPM range. My SAAB AERO 2.3 turbo had max torque output at around 2000... Low enough to feel that lovely push at any speed...
I LOVE TURBOS. Turbocharged cars feel lively and eager at every push of the pedal...
Low end torque makes more difference that high end HP...

Then again TRD s/c will NOT void warranty...

motozen

coming from a 2.7T audi with ko4s.... There is very little lag if you chip. The lag doesn't mean much when it throws you in your seat in less then a blink of an eye!

TeamMightyMiniz

A low boost turbo (10psi or less) is almost as good as a supercharger.
A blower under your hood can get you off the line adequetly. And S/C's are praised in the automotive industry for being one of THE best bolt on mods you can add for HP. Of course you can up the power with headers/exhaust/fuel manegment +larger injectors/larger throttlebody, etc.

A turbo with HIGH boost is for those fools who want to continue spending $$$ on their tC and use it for racing... nothing else.
High PSI Turbos require more dedication, mods, time and $ to maintain.

When you see a Turbo'd tC with less than 10PSI... ask how much they spent.

Also, about Twin Charging... it could be a fun mod.

Stefan_TC

Supercharged can never be as good as turbo. Ask people who race cars. Check SCCA rankings. No MINIs there. Sorry.

Superchargers are technbicaly obsolete. Saab 95 AERO makes 250HP from 2.3L I4 at healthy 5300 rpms... at 20 psi. I am not aware of high defectiveness of SAABs. On the contrary SAABs are know for longevity....
Do you a know an S/C that doubles engine's output (the same 2.3L w/o turbo makes less then 130 HP - no vvtec or any of similar inventions) ??? Is SAAB knows as a trouble brand or is it known for longevity???? Please do not make general statements that just cannot be supported....

Yes, as a bolt on application supercharger is both cheaper and safer for the engine... But not because it is BETTER than a turbo... It's like saying that Mustang is better than 911 because it is cheaper and makes more sense for an average driver... If there was an option I would go for turbo/intecooler for my TC. Just because I drove two generations of 2.3L turbocharged engines and know what such a relatively small displacement is capable of when charged........

Tc with 250HP at 5300 and 258lbs of torque at 1900rpms...
I would love like to see it..... and drive it...

TeamMightyMiniz

People who race cars eh?
Check the history of Tony Nuzzo and his 2 top ranking MCS's

Stefan_TC

So if I show you that people are racing electric cars does that mean the electric engine is proven and viable choice for a racer?

People race anything including trucks and lawnmowers and there is a class for anything. I am talking about trubo sport cars like S4, EVO, Subaru? Did you race these with your 164HP supercharged FWD soapbox?

TeamMightyMiniz

See there you go again... placing cars out of class into this discussion. What's the point.
I gave a GREAT example of a Supercharger in an application you seemed to think you knew all about. Then you flipped your statement to fit your own arguement.
Validate yourself prior to speaking.
Now, look into the Tony Nuzzo history with a Supercharger in Professional Competition... which he places.
They have said that their S/C'd MINI's place better times than their 3 series racers, consistantly.
Of course, they've made sure that the suspension is priority, thusly proving it more important than HP again.
Thanks for helping me in clearing that up for everyone, Stefan.

Stefan_TC

Well, you started this. Didn't you say you "killed" S4, EVO and whole bunch of other cars?
MINI does not count as a racing machine. It does not stand ground against S4 or EVO. Surely it can compete with BMW 330 and Acura RSX but these are NOT sport cars... A great supercharger application? Race your supercharged MINI against a turbocharged car like EVO or S4 or Subaru...

Run it in a rally and then claim superior handling over AWD S4, EVO and Subaru...))
You killed them all, didn't you?

MINI is a novelty item, nothing more. FWD and 164 HP. Maybe Tt is good in its class, so are certain lawnmowers. But it does not make it a sports car. Sport cars are turbo... Superchargers are obsolete and as such MINI traded them for advanced turbo in 2006 model. Wake up.

TeamMightyMiniz

Well, again... The S4 was toasted in a mountain course
The STI (not Stock) was 1/100th of a second ahead of a stock HP MCS with suspension mods on a road course. Both were beat by a HEAVILY Modified Evo... HEAVILY. The same MCS toyed with the Porsche Cup Car... Remember reading that?

Did I mention we killed an EVO? Hmm I think we may have on a mountain course. We've killed a lot of your dream cars on a mountain course. Even a Ferrari, Boxster, couple of Lambo's... they cannot handle to course.

Sports cars are turbos????
HAHAHAHA
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?

Stefan_TC

yeah I am still laughing

Of course. Front wheel drive MINI surely handle much better then all-wheel-drive S4 or EVO... Not to mention availabe HP and torque... I am kidding and so are you....right?

You know better than I if it is... From fastest Porsche, LAMBO and Supra to rally-winning Mitsu, Subaru AUDI and many other European sport cars they are all turbos. Even you own MINI dropped super in favor of more advanced turbo... You call me an ignorant? Name one supercharged sports car....
By the way, do you know what WRC stands for? Do you know what cars are winning there? Do some checking yourself. You may start here: http://www.wrc.com/page/Cars/0,,10111,00.html

codemunkee

stefan, i agree with you about the turbocharged vs supercharged discussion but, and this is a HUGE but...to say the MINI is a novelty item is well, stupid. if you don't think the MINI is real racing pedigree just visit any track event on any given weekend and you'll probably see them racing. there is a spec racing series for them (a friend races one, and he just came in first). And if we turn to autocross, the cooper dominates H-stock, to such a degree that there is talk of creating a spec class for just itself! A lot of dealerships in the country sponsor MINI race cars, and it's not because it's a non competitive car. Get off your very high horse if you please. Thank you!

TeamMightyMiniz

thanks Munkee.

Stephan is on his own mission here it seems.
The FWD MINI is a formidable opponant... especially to those HEAVY AWD cars he's dreaming of. His inability to comprehend what we've achived in nearly Stock MINI's, through the mountains here in SoCal nearly makes his head explode. The list stands as written above. Those vehicles fell to the MINI. Period.

Stephan, you should come out to SoCal and give one of these roads a whirl in one of your fancy dream cars...and realize how damn hard they are pushed to keep up with the MINI.

again, ignorance is bliss isn't it Stephan?

Stefan_TC

And you should stop the B/S about mountain roads and check what WRC vehicles go through in an average race.... Just do some checking on WRC as I suggested...
Here we go again: www.wrc.com I bet you do not even know what WRC is, do you?

You are so focused on American racing which are really amateur events compared to European events... Check World Rally and notice the cars that are being racing and winning there.....
Tip: no European MINIs in European racing - simply nobody takes seriously a FWD 164HP car overe there...... (but, what could possibly Europeans know about cars, right? ) Check this website that list champion for 50 years of Euro Racing and do soem research on cars that won... http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/erc.htm

Going back to turbo vs supercharger: MINI decided to replace supercharger with turbo - is it because of the latter inferiority to supercharger?
Again, with every post you prove that you should know better...

By the way, how about an example of supercharged sports car???? This is a third request now and I am still waiting.. Do not be shy.. show off your ignorance...

codemunkee

i should really stop posting but....

the reason the MINI is not a rally car is because
1)it's not long enough to meet regulation
2)it's not AWD and wouldn't be in the major manufacturers class

but.

http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/10/...eel_drive_mini

and i don't know what bs you're talking about american racing? if it's not FIA it's not real racing? give me a break. it's two different continents.

here's the euro spec racing series if you're interested (i'm sure you're not)
http://www.johncooper.co.uk/JohnCoop...perMotorsport/

TeamMightyMiniz

Thanks Munkee... again

you only validated my statements and I thank you.

Stefan is truely clueless outside his own bubble of reality.

Stefan_TC

Difference between Euro racing and American racing is like between American cars and European cars... Hadnlidng of an avergae European car and handling of an average American car... Or European highways and American "highways".... Autobahn versus I95... BMW versus Pontiac.... Should I go on?

Most of the best European racing cars never made it to US...
Just chek this list of European champions and cars that won Euor champisonship..
http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/wrc.htm

Even our own Ford sells much better cars in Europe than in the US like the Cossworth series....
Anyways, this is not a subject of this debate. I am just laughing at a guy who compares 164HP FWD MINI to cars like 250HP AWD Audi S4 or Porsche 911..... and never heard of turbocharged sport cars like Porsche 911 and all of the WRC cars...

MINI is a nice car for a fanatic, another example of European craftmaship and engineering but still it is what it is - a novelty item, nothing more.
Mitsus, AUDIs, Lancias, Toyotas Porches BMWs won numerous races around the world, I am not aware of MINI winning anything yet..........

Maybe in its own class, then again there is possibly class for lawnmowers and someone is winning there, too...

psyontific

does anyone think this horse is yet?

psyontific

does anyone think this horse is dead yet? (oops about the previous post)

TeamMightyMiniz

dead horse....

Neither is better.
Do I need to repeat myself?

you say I've never heard of turbo'd sports cars?? Or all of the WRC cars?
what an assanine thing to say.

You up yourself with each post there Steph.

We enjoy it.

codemunkee

It is a dead horse.

I have no idea what the heck Stefan is talking about anymore. He is either a 16 year old Gran Turismo player, or crazy. haha