Milhamscion

[\quote]In any case, I'm glad that some dealers are at least revealing the fees up front. Now if we can just get the others to follow suit and, finally, to produce a true "pure price", where the number in large print is the actual number you pay without any add-on fees.

Baby steps, but we're getting closer.

George[/quote]

I agree George!! (wow, thats a first,lol) There are a couple small problems with "one price" though. Several different factors including new plate vs plate transfer, in state vs out of state...etc will still make it impossible for EVERYONE to pay the exact same price.[/quote]

JBHS98

I think we have said about all we can say, but i want to note one last thing.
George, you asked why we can't just include the doc fee in with the retail price. The answer is actually very simple. Everything in the retail price is taxable (in TX at least). So, if the price is $16,500 and then $50 doc fee is included, the taxable amount would be $16,550. Doc fees are added after taxes, so they cannot be included witht he retail price. It has to be listed seperately.

DibujoB

All dealerships WILL have to have doc fees posted up front on the websites, cars, and menus in the showroom by mid July.

The Scion Covenant was updated and this is one of the many new stipulations.

Remember, Scion never claimed they had everything 100% the first time. The first year has been largely an experiment and they're constantly evolving based on what's working and what's not. One thing that won't change though is the Scion Promise....

That customers will be in control and that the process will be transparant and open. Some dealerships have really resisted the Scion way and they have been acknowledged and will be penalized.

BuckeyeCase

Listing the doc fee on the dealer Web site would be great. That would pretty much take all the legwork out of finding the best deal. I noticed a few that had it on there, but most did not.

cliffy1

This brings up an interesting point. Would you prefer to buy from a dealer that has a $225 doc fee and is open about it or $99 and have it sprung on you at the last moment?

BuckeyeCase

If I'm going to pay it either way, I want the lowest. That's why it pays to research this stuff before you even goto the dealer.

George

The error here is in assuming that the documentation fee is required at all. I really doubt that the dealer, who has just charged the customer a junk fee, is going to care about whether the fee is taxable or not. It's just another diversion from the fact that the fee is a baldfaced method to charge the customer more money than the advertised price.

If the dealer was so concerned about the customer's tax liability, why not sell the car for $50 and charge a $16,500 documentation fee?

This is interesting. Salesmen have repeatedly asserted in these forums that fee disclosure "up front" was already a part of the covenant. Were they mistaken?

I don't know of any marketer who admits any flaw, at least to the public. As a customer, I really don't appreciate being their beta tester. I get enough of that from M$.

Customers have always been in control, legally, as they can walk out at any time. This part of the "promise" isn't any change from the norm.

As far as transparent, there is a lot of leeway there. Will dealers advertise thus:

Scion xB: $15,500+$50 Documentation fee

Or will they advertise more like this:

Scion xB: $15,500+fees

(or worse, with a dreaded asterisk)

If they do the latter, it's no change from car business as usual. The small print makes the bold print meaningless.

Have any dealers lost their Scion franchise? It seems to me that Scion is just juggling the vehicle allocations of offending dealers a bit. Fewer cars now, but it'll even out in the end. If an offending dealer has already taken deposits on their allocations, the customers get punished too, and may not even be told of why their cars have been delayed. What is Scion doing to mitigate that?

Neither. I'll go to a dealer who doesn't charge junk fees at all.

George

cliffy1

So honesty has no value to you. I'm not slamming you for this. I actually appreciate your honesty in admitting this. This is precicely the reason dealers play these games. They know you'll tolerate them to save a dollar.

jeffrgunn23

Allright sport, because it would have to look like this:

$15,500 + $50 Documentation Fee + 6.25% Sales Tax + .269% Inventory Tax + Liscense Fees + $5 Full Service Deputy Fee

I think that the astrick is a little better when it comes to advertising

And I have to wonder George, how does it feel to know that when you get on-line you have to defend EVERY statement you make? I don't know about the rest of the dealers on here, but all of the customer's that I have sold Scion's to have been very happy with the sales process.

George

No. There is an obvious distinction between government taxes/fees that are the same for all dealers and junk fees that vary widely from dealer to dealer.

The government fees go to the government, the junk fees go into the dealer's pocket. The dealer shouldn't have to include the government fees in his advertised prices any more than any other retailer. Junk fees, however, are controlled completely by the dealer and should be included in the advertised price.

I'm sure that you would think so, since it gives the ad-writer the ability to advertise a fantasy price in bold print and then hide the bad news in 6-point type at the bottom of the page.

Umm, it's called a "forum". Discussion is expected! If salesmen want to tag-team that's fine by me!

Spoken like a true salesman!

I was satisfied with the sales process at the dealer where I purchased my xB.

I was not happy at the dealers where I didn't purchase a car.

See the correlation?

cliffy1

So the government again gets its pound of flesh without a whimper but if it end up in the private sector, its a "junk fee." Seriously George, I get what you are saying, but your insistance on using this kind of language is what gets everybody in a tizzy over your posts. When you choose to use anti-business, nanny-goverment buzz words and phrases, you can expect to get reactions. There are those of us to whom Socialist commentary is akin to fingernails on a blackboard. Nothing personal George, but you are diluting your own message by offending the capitalist of the group.

jeffrgunn23

Very well put Cliffy.

George

Everybody pays the same government fees no matter what dealer you buy at, so there is no point in including them in a comparison. I don't like taxes, but they are a fact of life. After all, in a democracy, we _are_ the government.

Well, it gets the salesmen in a tizzy, at least! I doubt that car buyers would object to the term.

It is not often I'm accused of being a socialist! You _really_ don't know me!

I use the term "junk fees" because everyone understands what a junk fee is. It's a fee tacked onto the price by the seller for their own purposes. Dealers, of course, are not happy with this term, but they are seldom happy with plain talk. They'd rather obfuscate the issue with official-sounding names like "documentation fee", "customer service fee", "accommodation fee", or whatever else their fertile imaginations come up with.

George

itimebomb

george i'm curious, have you ever had any utilities transferred to a different home? i moved out of my house into a townhouse last week and had to switch over my gas, electric, and cable. $20 transfer fees with each bill. they were able to deactivate and activate service over the phone within 30 seconds each time. when i started each account they required even higher startup fees. fair? who knows, it's the price i have to pay to do business with them. simple enough.

if you don't want to pay it find a dealer that doesn't charge it. that's what the pure pricing solution is all about. you can shop at each dealer's website, where ALL numbers are disclosed up front.

and if you think a 500-600 dollar markup should cover the dealer's end, sorry it doesn't either. at my dealer average cost to sell a car is 1700 (including advertising, pack, etc...). so we lose. parts and service makes up for it though. however, that is not an excuse to never try and recoup your cost up front. we charge 99.50 here. do i like it? no, but its there. when i was on commission 350 of the gross of each deal went to the owner and to cover other costs. didn't like that either. cost of doing business. that doc fee doesn't get factored into the gross. the salesman doesn't get paid off it. goes who knows where, to the company to make money. GASP, a business making money. granted some fees are just greedy. 50-100 seems modest to me to do business. 500 is ridiculous.

there's such animosity for car dealership's wanting to make money. just like every other business. at least they are up front about it.

cliffy1

George, you are correct that I don't know you, which is why I tried to ensure that you didn't think I was calling you a socialist. I indicated that you are using terms and phrases that sound very much like those that a Socialist would use. You may or may not have been aware of that.

I would also point out that it is NOT up to the dealership to call a fee anything. At least not in many states. Here in VA, any fee MUST be called a processing fee and if we charge it to anybody, we must charge it to all or risk a discrimination suit. Your accusations of how this is handled are off base.

I also remain floored by your overall attitude. It seems we must all agree 100% with you or risk your venom and distain. Ignoring the fact that this is the mark of political extremism (either right or left), its not conducive to good discussion. There are those of us here who are genuinely interested in making this a better experience for consumers, yet all we get are insults and put-downs. When your only response to a valid point is to claim its a typical salesman response, it does nothing to increase understanding by consumers. Believe me... me and the other guys who frequent this site and take the time to talk to you are far from the "typical salesman" you intend to lump us in with.

Chill George. You're an educator and an engineer. I have assumed you are an intelligent guy. Being an intelligent guy, I would hope that you would look a bit more critically at your words and attitudes.

jeffrgunn23

It's a fee tacked onto the price by the seller for their own purposes

Yea, and that purpose is to make money, which is what we are in this buisness for. And yes George that is spoken like a true salesmen like I know you are going to say.

I think that doc fees should be disclosed, and I do disclose them to all of my customers as well as all of the tax title and lic. fees.

George

Well, I've been accused of tarring all salesmen with the same brush, something that isn't true, but I'll be generous and call it even.

Yes, some states do regulate dealer fees to prevent abuses. Others do not. However, the fact that you have to "charge it to all" doesn't mean that you have to charge it at all! It's the dealer's option, and some dealers are straightforward enough to put all their profit into the price they advertise and dispense with junk fees.

If you attempt to justify questionable practices, then you can expect me to disagree with you. If your dealer's practice is to split your true charges so that you can advertise a lower price, you'll find that I don't approve of the practice. The fact that a practice is common doesn't make it desirable or ethical.

I doubt that you'll find anyone on the customer side of the table that appreciates having the pricing made more complex simply so that the dealer can advertise a lower number and then pocket more money from the customer. If stating this qualifies as "venom and disdain" to you, so be it.

You keep trying to drag politics into the discussion. Sorry, but it's not a matter of politics, but one of honesty and clarity.

Well, I am skeptical of this. In my experience, things are pretty much business as usual. The only thing changed with Scion is that the MSRP is fixed. While individual salesmen may want to improve the situation, the fact is that the dealers are in control and the majority are continuing the same practices that they used in the past.

That isn't my only response, and you know it. I hardly call a broad, unverifiable statement such as "all my buyers are happy" or even one that is obvously false like "all dealers charge documentation fees" to be a "valid point". Some folks would call it "a big lie". It seems that some salesmen have been making such broad claims for so long that they don't realize how hollow they sound. Should such claims be accepted as gospel simply because the salesman states them with conviction?

On the contrary, this discussion has probably increased understanding quite a bit. If nothing else, the folks reading this thread will know a few additional questions to ask when they come to visit you and be aware of some of the pitfalls that thay will face.

I agree. I don't lump anyone into a group. Folks lump themselves quite well without assistance.

If, by "chill", you mean that I should go away and stop informing prospective scion buyers of things to watch out for, then you will be disappointed. I'm an educator and can't really help educating! If your dealership is on the up-and-up, then you really don't have anything to worry about, right?