itimebomb

george, actually it seems that your logic is flawed. if a socially acceptable lie is ok because you say it is socially acceptable, then i say that if it widely assumed that salesman are going to lie to you then to me it would be socially acceptable for them to do so?

it boggles me how you can assume so much about people you've never met. do you assume that all black people are african, even funnier do you assume they all like fried chicken? sorry george but you happen to be the reason i hate selling cars. and the reason the dude up there decided to stop posting is because he's probably afraid of the potential backlash against his dealership because of posting irritations he has with his customers. knock sales people all day, heaven forbid we expose the flaws of our customers. they might not by from us then, but we still sell to you when you don't like us. besides, car salesman aren't people anyway. how about this one:

"give me your best price"
"if i do that will you buy my car"
"no, and i'll probably shop it"
"so i got to the trouble to give you a number so you can go down the road, save 20 bucks and buy elsewhere?"

this make any sense to you GEORGE? i do something for you so you can use it against me somewhere else? sounds like a waste of time to me. oh wait but you want to be taken seriously and respected and not taking into consideration that i am not paid by the hour and am therefore wasting my time if you have no intention of buying from me. you will forever remain ignorant until you join the business and see what happens and why. until then you're just another person with an uninformed opinion.

anyway we are talking about scion. the whole thing is designed to be anti-jicky.

RoryC

[quote="George"]You think your more knowledgeble, but for the most part, your just misinformed. When I said, "I don't want to get in trouble", I was merely saying, I need to bite my tounge, before I share how I truly feel about people like you.

I also have a feeling that the salesman you purchased from, probably recieved a flat, and the dealership only made money on the back end, (Waranty, etc).

JUMBO

Again, I love it.

Ususally, someone's high and mighty morals will bite them, and it just has. While it is a crime against humanity for George to pay an extra cent to a car dealer and be 'deceived', it is perfectly acceptable for George to bend the rules of an organization in order to save some money.

And there you have it folks, money is the root of all things. In our capitalist society, at least. George won't get screwed, but it's OK if someone else gets screwed. Oh, and you have caught him being dishonest, just not to you, George. To his employer.

I think the term is "Hoisted on his own pitard". Character will ultimately always reveal itself.

LATER

DibujoB

What up wes? Sorry I didn't see this post before right now...I zipped you a PM.

KoonsAnnapolisScion

"He probably bends his employer's rules a bit, but has gotten away with it for more than a decade, because he has customers lined up waiting to buy from him."

Is this the type of person anyone with a company would want working for them? Someone who steals from the company to make a sale? I would put up any of my salespeople against this person in a morals review. As long as it benefits you it is ok to deceive, lie and "bend the rules"? That is a pretty twisted way of looking at things and maybe you need to take a step back and take inventory of your own morals.

suicidal2af

Depending on the salesman, yes, it could be the type of person a company wants working for them. Chances are, when he "bends the rules", any hit in margin the company takes is coming out of his commission. And if it's not, if they amount of business he brings in more than evens it out.

Let's look at this example. If you're making $685 on every tC that goes out the door, let's imagine that a salesman your dealership starts selling that $100 below MSRP. You're taking a $100 hit in profit. But if suddenly all of the business in the area, and are selling twice as many units as you would have before, you're making a lower GMD percentage, but higher net margin. So even though you're "bending the rules", you're still making more money. You're also making customers happy. And that leads to referrals.

George

Well, he's been at this Sears store for well over a decade that I know of! They are apparently pleased enough with his performance to have him stay and to pay him well enough to fend off other stores that would like him to work there.

The "bending" I referred to was in letting his customers know when the appliance they want goes on sale. Sears rotates everything on and off sale on a weekly basis. Considering that he calls from his store phone, I doubt that his bosses are unaware of what he does. I really don't know telling customers about sales is against the company's policy or not. Note the work "probably" in my statement above!

Rather than have to check the papers every week, all I do is wait for a phone call. That is a customer service I appreciate.
You are the one who assumed theft was involved. Straw man tactic.

My morals are just fine, but I seem to have hit a lot of hot buttons with the salesmen hereabouts. I never thought I'd ever see a car salesman lecturing on morals!
And just where did I say that?
Read my response above again. His employer isn't complaining and neither are his customers. I probably shouldn't have made the statement "bend the rules" because it may not be the case.
No, the phrase from Shakespeare, is "hoist with his own petard" Do you know what a petard is? (without Googling it)
As far as my knowledge about buying cars, I seem to be know enough to get some salesmen here very bothered.
Why? I paid MSRP like all other Scion buyers. He didn't violate his dealer's policies in any way that I could see. The fact that the salesman completed the transaction with no BS shouldn't mean a thing to his bosses.
Well, if that is your philosophy, go right ahead. It does seem to be the norm for your profession. I really didn't believe it at first, but it does seems to fit most (but, luckily, not all) of the auto salemen I've encountered.
<racial baiting deleted>
Why do you do something you hate?
Yes, we customers do seem to be the ones with the checkbooks, no matter how much you loathe us! It is interesting to see your true feelings come out on this forum. Every time a salesman starts a rant, we learn a bit more about how he ticks.
How about quoting a price low enough that the guy down the road won't undercut it and the customer will come back to you? Good 'ol honest competition. After all, dealer's ads scream "we'll beat any deal!", so why is it bad that a customer would test the assertion?
I don't care a whit about your financial situation or whether you are paid by the hour or not. That is between you and your employer. If you don't like your job, find one that you do like.

I had a salesman waste two hours of my time after he lied to me about junk fees. I asked him directly if his dealer charged them, was told "no", after which I made it clear that I wouldn't accept them. Still, he continued the sales process to the point where he had to reveal the fee. Do I feel sorry for him? Nope, because he had the opportunity to say "sorry, my boss won't go for that" and cut things off before we both wasted time.

George

JUMBO

George

I think that I speak for most involved with these forums when I say it is extremely irritating when you grossly generalize the ENTIRE industry and ALL who work for it as lying, conniving cheaters. That is simply not true, and you know it. It seems a bit childish to lump everyone into the same group. And I'm sure that the salesman who you purchased from, in addition to the Sears salesman, wouldn't be too pleased of your characterization either.

Just like you would rather be judged by your individual merits, so would we. It's fine to educate customers (that's my job, too), but by constantly pointing the finger at ALL salesman as the devilin every situation, it continues the cycle of adversity that the industry has existed on for decades. I'm not saying that we could necessarily change everything here and now, but it oculd be a start.

I do not hate my customers. I do not begrudge them feeling defensive when they walk into the dealership. I do, however, object when I am not given a fair shake. Judge me by my actions, not by the actions of those before.

I do genuinely find it interesting as to why you feel the way you do. I know the story, and you had some unfortunate encounters. But to demonize all for the actions of a few? Come on. Give (most of) us a break, would ya?

cliffy1

Lies and deceit. George has been lied and deceived to so many times, he doesn't know when the truth is sitting in front of him. That's sad. Its also sad that he can't even be truthful himself during his tirades. George, of all people should be aware that any and all fees must be disclosed as part of Pure Price. I'm sure he knows this, but still posts stuff like this:

Note also the inflammatory tone of his words. This is the other reason George gets such vitriolic responses. Just about every post he makes sounds like something Lenin would have said. Price fixing, monopolies, hidden pitfalls, evil corporations and devious people lurking in the shadows are part of a dogma that sets a lot of folks on edge. This is also a dogma that is dominant in today's academia so this should not be surprising considering his profession.

George

I don't assume to speak for anyone but myself.

Show me where I have used the words "entire" or "all". You're trying to put those words in my mouth. Sorry, they won't go. I have always been careful to acknowledge (twice by example) that there are honest salespeople out there.

Sadly, my experience is that most salesmen are not forthright. They evade the "deal-killer" questions, attempt to manipulate the customer, and sometimes tell outright lies.

They wouldn't misinterpret my statements as you have. I'm sure they recognize the state of their profession and how they are different from others. They treated me well, paid attention to what I wanted, and made the sales. They didn't try to steer me around, sell me things I didn't want, or use other deceptive methods. They played fair, and I played fair. It can be done, and that is what separates the true professional salesman from the dilettantes.

Absolutely! The problem is that your idea of change seems to be that the customer should drop all defenses and trust the salesmen/dealers implicitly. Would _you_ do that, in their position?

Again, you are trying to slip the word "all" into the discussion. That is your thought, not mine.

When most encounters result in blatent deceptive behavior on the part of the salesman, It is difficult to "give a break." The individual salesman is going to have to prove, thought his actions, that he "deserves a break."

Those are supposedly the rules, but junk fees were _not_ disclosed at two of the four dealers I visited. This was despite direct inquiries on my part at the beginning of the process. It seems that using "$XX,XXX plus fees is considered sufficient disclosure by many dealers, even thought the salesmen won't tell you what those "fees" are beyond a vague "y'know, taxes and that sort of stuff".

Look, all I am suggesting is that buyers keep their heads up throughout the entire transaction and make sure that they understand everything before they agree to the transaction. They should be aware of the possibility of junk fees and other scams that could befall them. They should be willing to end the transaction if they don't feel comfortable with it or if they feel that the salesman isn't being honest with them.

If a salesman is on the up-and-up, he need not fear this. If the salesman isn't, he deserves the unwanted scrutiny.

George

DibujoB

Can't we all just get along?

JBHS98

On my dealership's website, we state at the bottom of the vehicle price page that all prices do not include tax, title, and license fees. We also state that there is a Document fee of $50. This is posted on my site, (www.dondavisscion.com, under new vehicle pricing), in my store, and in our paperwork. The only time a customer would not be told about this is if the salesperson misunderstood the question about junk fees or any other term used when asking. If I am asked to figure the "T,T, &L" for a customer, I also include the doc fee, and break down every line for them. There is no reason for me to cover up a $50 fee that doesn't even affect my paycheck. It doesn't go towards my gross profit, it goes to the accounting dept. No benefit to me.
George, perhaps the other salespeople misunderstood you, perhaps the lied to you; since i wasn't there, I will not try to pretend I know. My customers ask me to see things from their point of view, and if they can do the same for me, then we usually are both very happy at the end of the day.

woodstock

ohhh.. you done gone and called him a commie

KoonsAnnapolisScion

BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! :twisted:


To all who are trying to defend car dealerships and it's employees, I think we are beating the proverbial dead horse! I give up...my customers know I treat them in a fair and honest manner and I also know this to be true as you all do about your dealerships and yourselves. There is no use trying to bring George back from the pit of despair he has mired himself in. He has so much anomosity directed toward our kind nothing we could say or do would change that.

KoonsAnnapolisScion

Very funny.......almost spit out my lunch when i read that!

cliffy1

I contemplated whether to say Vladimir or John, but I figured people could draw their own conclusions.

woodstock

i think that's be Lennon... but ok :D

JUMBO

I hope so. I can't get through, but I am no longer interested. I will no longer take ownership of George's problem.

We shall both have our opinion, and that's that.

LATER, and long live Scion!!

CU_rob

Yikes.
I went and really opened up a can of worms...
So this post is about dead... ready to lock this one up yet?

I did enjoy the good fodder we had going with this post.
Good job guys making this a wonderfully colorful discussion.

Long live the forum. :D

George

I congratulate you on being forthright and posting this information. It would be nice if every dealer followed your lead.

It would be even nicer if the dealer simply added the documentation fee to the retail price, since that way the customer would know the true price of the car without having to do math.

In my experience, many salesmen are very good at misunderstanding questions that they don't want to answer. That's one excuse I received from salesmen when I questioned why I wasn't told of the fees up front. The other excuse was that the documentation fee was a government mandate.

That's great! I asked the salesman to tell me "the number I will write on the check" (can I get any clearer than that?) and they still hemmed and hawed and said "I'll have to talk to the manager", etc. That's one thing that bothered me a lot. On a car that is supposedly fixed price, with no accessories, how could a salesman not know exactly what the price will be? I'm glad that you know.

As you know, I tend to be blunt. The only reason that a salesman would "misunderstand" me is if it suited them to do so. How could they misunderstand the question "Do you charge any non-governmental fees?" They knew precisely what I was asking, and they chose to sidestep it.

In any case, I'm glad that some dealers are at least revealing the fees up front. Now if we can just get the others to follow suit and, finally, to produce a true "pure price", where the number in large print is the actual number you pay without any add-on fees.

Baby steps, but we're getting closer.

George